From extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fri Jul 16 17:24:48 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA26066; Fri, 16 Jul 93 17:24:45 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.ed (ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu) by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA19851; Fri, 16 Jul 93 17:24:35 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu id AA15971; Fri, 16 Jul 93 20:04:11 EDT Message-Id: <9307170004.AA15971@ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: ExI-Daily@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 20:01:47 EDT X-Original-Message-Id: <9307170001.AA15963@ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Original-To: Extropians@ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu From: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Extropians Digest V93 #0394 X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on July 17, 373 P.N.O. [00:04:00 UTC] Reply-To: Extropians@ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: OR Extropians Digest Sat, 17 Jul 93 Volume 93 : Issue 0394 Today's Topics: ADA Position Paper [1 msgs] Books by G. Smith [1 msgs] Dave Ross is hiring [1 msgs] Extropian Symbols [1 msgs] Forward/Vegan: ADA Position Paper [1 msgs] HEx: New Exchange Regulations [7 msgs] Metaprogramming experiments [1 msgs] Metaprogramming experiments: I was conditioned to respond in this manner... [1 msgs] NANO: A TM-5 the size of a red blood cell? [1 msgs] PHIL: Free will? [1 msgs] Scientific validity in metaprogramming experiments [1 msgs] What are big upcoming problems? [3 msgs] hand waving on nanobearings [1 msgs] help [1 msgs] sell mwm 100 20 [1 msgs] Administrivia: This is the digested version of the Extropian mailing list. Please remember that this list is private; messages must not be forwarded without their author's permission. To send mail to the list/digest, address your posts to: extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu To send add/drop requests for this digest, address your post to: exi-daily-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu To make a formal complaint or an administrative request, address your posts to: extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu If your mail reader is operating correctly, replies to this message will be automatically addressed to the entire list [extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu] - please avoid long quotes! The Extropian mailing list is brought to you by the Extropy Institute, through hardware, generously provided, by the Free Software Foundation - neither is responsible for its content. Forward, Onward, Outward - Harry Shapiro (habs) List Administrator. Approximate Size: 70026 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 20:38:36 -0700 From: moulton@netcom.com (Fred C. Moulton) Subject: Books by G. Smith >From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) >The rationality of faith was examined by Smith (?) in a book called >something like : _Atheism - the case against God_ Can someone help me >with the author and title? In fact, I think Max lent it to me, some >years ago. Perhaps it should be added to the reading list. _Atheism: The Case Against God_ by George H. Smith was first published by Nash Publishing Co. in 1974. Nash is no longer in business. The book has been republished by Prometheus Books, 700 E. Amherst St. Buffalo, New York 14215 716-837-2475. Prometheus Books also publishes Smith's other book _Atheism, Ayn Rand, and Other Heresies_ as well as _Reclaiming the Mainstream: Individualist Feminism Rediscovered_ by Joan Kennedy Taylor. HTH Fred ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jul 1993 23:33:52 -0700 (PDT) From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) Subject: NANO: A TM-5 the size of a red blood cell? Elias Israel: > (I say that it "processes the same number of instructions" rather than > "does the same amount of work" because the former is more precise than > the latter, Good for you! I'm tired of bogus pseudo-physics like "computing power", "powerful theories", "social forces", etc. (Not that phrases like "information" don't get abused as well...) These are channel markers indicating the writer/speaker has reached either his limit of understanding or ability to communicate. > In addition, the idea of machines this powerful floating through living > tissue is reason to give any software engineer pause: though much work > has been done, how can we ever raise the art of software development to > the point where we'd trust the code to control machines with such > immense destructive power? What destructive power? Any single machine is likely to have limited capability, any error is likely to be fairly innocuous, and cell biochemistry is quite robust against attacks. Cell repair machines can also be thoroughly tested in other mammals and any dangerous aspects (eg injection of poison into cells, creation of viruses, etc.) fail-safed. Compare to contemporary genetic therapy, where viruses are created and spread throughout human tissue without an software self-diagnostic or fail-safe capability. (Remind me to talk about Genopunks, DNAnarchists, my friend Juanita Poppyseed, etc. in future posts). > What other doors does this technology open? Neural interfaces to global > information search-and-retrieval systems? Current neurons are designed for, and probably work best with, our fingers and voice and senses. Direct neural connection probably won't help much unless we redesign the neurons themselves. One possibility is a huge neural transplant, with the new neurons trained to translate vague English queries into regular expression and relational database query language (eg grep and SQL). > are we going to adapt to computers too powerful to comprehend and too > numerous to count? We already have such computers, libraries of idiot-savant alien software far beyond the comprehension of any single human, all over the planet, and we're not anywhere close to having adapted to them. Nick Szabo szabo@techbook.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 10:00:43 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: HEx: New Exchange Regulations X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission Nick Szabo says: You are probably refering to my price. I assure you that I have not manipulated it given the normal understanding of the word. > If Thorne supply is allowed to grow, it should be done in > some formulaic, not arbitrary manner. For example, Thorne > supply might be increased every time there is a share split > or IPO, by the increase in total shares in the market > times average price per share. What is the point here? I think we need a lesson in free banking. The money supply does NOT need to grow. What is needed is more of an incentive for people to spend their money and a way for people to loan it out. > As it stands now, the current prices reflect almost entirely > price-fixing skill, and have practically nothing to do with > reputation. I assure you that I haven't been fixing *my* price. The real problem with the pricing is that most shares are held by their owners and that there isn't a real two way market in progress. Much of the time, no real bid or ask exist in a security. This is very common in real markets where over 90% of shares are owned by the primary owner, which is one reason why most markets require that a substantial portion of the company actually be in public hands to list the security. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 9:24:57 CDT From: capntaz@dudemar.b24a.ingr.com (Heath G. Goebel) Subject: HEx: New Exchange Regulations > From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) > Subject: HEx: New Exchange Regulations > > Right now, several issues are selling for over > 1,000 times what they're worth. I won't name names, but > obviously people are manipulating their own or each other's > reputation prices, oustanding value, or whatever else is perceived > as the "reputation rating" to bizarre extremes. I hope this is not the beginning of a slam the brothers Goebel climate because of their HExchange price manipulations. Remeber that M. Milken is an extropians-list hero. I have a strong feeling that members of this list support a defacto motto that "Talk is cheap." If I had simply posted that I perceived a problem with HEX acurately representing free market reputations because I control the number of shares of my outstanding stock, the topic would probably have been dropped just like Derek Zahn's comments. Not until we had abused the HExchange to boost our "market reputations", did Rowan issue new HEX rules. [No slam on Rowan intended, just general comments. I think HEX is great, and I own HEx shares in R.] -- Heath G. Goebel, ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 10:06:51 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: hand waving on nanobearings X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission "James A. Donald" says: > Summary: > 1. Drexler misrepresents my claims and arguments, and > attacks a straw man of his own creation, and calls me an > ignorant bluffer for making nonsense arguments. I think he was 100% on target. He understands his discipline (having devoted years of his life to the subject), and you do not show signs of understanding his discipline. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 09:25:03 -0500 From: extr@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: HEx: New Exchange Regulations In <9307160233.AA14424@ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, Nick Szabo writes: [good stuff on HEx] |> Very strange and interesting and fun, but don't take it too seriously, |> folks. |> I think the problem was the opposite ... we should take it for what it is, an experiment in abstract market-making, and see how well we can make it work without strappping it down with arbitrary regulations until we evolve our own SEC :-( I agree that share auctions will be a very useful feature. I was just figuring out how to start to do share pricing/selling "in a vacuum", but it isn't working too well. The indivisible Thorne is a pain in my side. I have half a mind to make a tender offer for my outstanding shares, split, and start over in a lower bracket. If my major shareholders don't like this idea, they should let me know privately (or just not ask when I bid 11 or 12 or whatever). Note that the exchange does not stop me from doing this unilaterally, thus screwing the people who paid 11 in good faith; but since it's a *reputation* market, that would be shooting both big toes off. Of course stock markets are partly reputation markets too. ^ / ------/---- extropy@jido.b30.ingr.com (Freeman Craig Presson) /AS 5/20/373 PNO /ExI 4/373 PNO ** E' and E-choice spoken here ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 09:39:27 -0500 From: extr@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: Extropian Symbols In <9307160013.AA13991@ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, Mike Wiik writes: |> > In a few weeks I'll post some notes from an interesting |> > book I'm finishing by Amit Goswami, PH.D [...] |> > However, no bird in the sun on the cover of book--just |> > a big eye swimming in the milky way. |> |> Hmmm. Sounds sorta like *GoD*, don't it??? :( Or Leviathan. -- cP ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:39:47 EDT From: Brian.Hawthorne@east.sun.com (Brian Holt Hawthorne - SunSelect Engineering) Subject: HEx: New Exchange Regulations A quick clarification. The new exchange regulations were NOT prompted by the machinations of the Brueder Goebel, although their experiments did provide a reasonable example of the kind of problem we were likely to see. The regulations were drafted previous to those transactions, with the help of a consultant (Do you have to pay taxes on income in Thornes?). Also, the Goebel's were quite open about what they were doing, and informed the Exchange via email. They also had some suggestions about how this could be prevented. I believe the problem will be adequately resolved by the new regulations, however. Now, back to hacking... Rowan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:41:45 EDT From: Brian.Hawthorne@east.sun.com (Brian Holt Hawthorne - SunSelect Engineering) Subject: HEx: New Exchange Regulations > I agree that share auctions will be a very useful feature. I was just > figuring out how to start to do share pricing/selling "in a vacuum", but it > isn't working too well. The indivisible Thorne is a pain in my side. That will probably change in the near term as well. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 09:54:25 -0500 From: extr@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: HEx: New Exchange Regulations In <9307161440.AA15177@ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, Brian Holt Hawthorne - SunSelect Engineering writes: [...] |> (Do you have to pay taxes on income in Thornes?). [...] BITE YOUR FINGERS, ROWAN! What a thing to say. Almost lost my breakfast. Now, paying the IRS in Thornes instead of dollars, though, that has some appeal! -- cP ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jun 93 17:23:02 PDT From: "Mark W. McFadden" Subject: Scientific validity in metaprogramming experiments On Thu, 15 Jul 1993 15:55:59 -0700, Dave Krieger wrote: > A failed experiment is one which ends up saying nothing >either way about your hypothesis, which is what would happen if you carried >out this experiment as described by Mark. > >Ray's confusion comes from the fact that there are two implicit hypotheses >which the experiment is trying (and failing) to test simultaneously. They >are: > > A. Rituals are useless for enhancing normal human capabilities > B. Any ritual or object of concentration is as good as any another Whoa! Hold it! Slow down. There, that's better. 1) We've been asked to shelve this until next week or so. 2) I proposed that _we_ design an experiment, I hope no one thinks that the silly remarks I made are my proposal for how it should be conducted. I'm hoping that the two (or more) "camps" out there will suggest refinements. 3) I tend to disagree with both Hypotheses A and B. But I have nothing other than a gut feeling, a few anomalous experiences and some references in the library (surrounded by other authorities saying it's all "mass hallucination" and fraud). Don't look at me, I'm agnostic. > >to prove them, but I think Mark's experiment is useful except for a fatal >flaw: no control group! The right way to design this experiment is to >have three experimental groups: And then Dave launches into just the sort of speculation and planning I was hoping to see. >Group 2 would practice pop-culture rituals such as the ones Mark describes, >made up out of whole cloth especially for the occasion. As Mark made clear >in his post, they should be as slipshod and corny as possible, because we >want to test the assertion that _any_ ritual will do, right? > Well, except for that. Actually, I was thinking along the lines of having the Pagan/Shamanistic group designing the ritual, but all references to deities in prayers/chants/invocations would be replaced with modern analogs from popular culture. The idea being to test if it's the mindset that is useful, not belief in a deity per se. Later Dave points out that we need to have some result to measure. That's where I got hung up. Outside of brick-breaking and fire-walking I can't think of any objective behavior we can measure. Which is not to say that no one else can. How would you like to be in the control group for a fire-walking test? "We find the fact that 100% of the control group received third degree burns up to their knees significant. When combined with their average of 3 shattered knuckles per participant........" > >If nobody has any serious quibbles with the foregoing, I'll go on to "what >is a ritual and what do we expect it to do for us"? > dV/dt > HEx Trading Symbol: DVDT You betchum Red Rider. But don't post it until late next week. ______________________________________________________________________ Mark W. McFadden | Been there.....done that. mwm@wwtc.timeplex.com | ___________________________________|__________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 11:07:46 -0700 From: "Thomas M. J. Fruchterman" Subject: Dave Ross is hiring Hi folks. RAF Technology, Inc., my pattern recognition software company, is hiring a couple of senior engineers. If you know anyone who might be interested, please pass the following on to them. Thanks! -dave ross davros@erg.sri.com p.s. don't reply to me. Reply to maverick@halcyon.com ============================================================ RAF Technology, a Redmond-based Optical Character Recognition (OCR) company, is interviewing for a full-time senior software engineer; the position starts immediately. THE JOB You will develop X-Windows/Motif tools for OCR development. You will take part in developing pattern recognition algorithms and products. EXPERIENCE REQUIRED BS/BA degree in Engineering, Mathematics, or Physics 4-10 years experience as a Software Engineer C Unix EXPERIENCE DESIRED advanced degree in Engineering, Mathematics, or Physics X-Windows (Xt and Motif) OCR or pattern recognition ABOUT RAF Two of the founders of Calera Recognition Systems -- the company that invented omni-font OCR -- created RAF to consult on custom OCR and pattern recognition applications. GETTING IN TOUCH Send e-mail to this account: maverick@halcyon.com or fax: (206) 882-7370 or mail to: RAF Technology 16700 NE 79th Street, Suite 100 Redmond WA 98052 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Tom Fruchterman RAF Technology ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 12:04:33 PDT From: Robin Hanson Subject: What are big upcoming problems? People here seem to (somewhat) share a vision of future technical and social possibilities, including nanotech, AI, cryonics, uploading, space colonization, private law, etc. This shared vision should give us a comparative advantage in thinking about the consequences of these technologies. When considering the "policy" implications of something (i.e. what you can infer about what you should *do* in response), it is usually best for risk-adverse folks to first focus on the down-side, to imagine what could go wrong. Sure, it's also important to imagine what could go right, so one can tradeoff upsides and downsides, but a few big downsides can outweight lots of upsides. So I am led to ask: What are the biggest upcoming "problems" posed by the technologies that we have a comparative advantage in understanding? "Problems" are possible negative consequences, at least if we don't prepare well, and "bigness" includes the severity of loss, the number of people affected, the probability of this scenario, and its proximity in time. And our comparative advantage is affected by our degree of consensus and understanding of the driving technologies, our uniqueness in taking some possibility seriously, and how soon action would need to be taken in response. (For example, while the end of the universe might certainly be devastating, and is a likely scenario, it is so removed in time that we now have little leverage in thinking about it.) Some possible problems: Grey Goo, nano-breakthrough shocks to power balances, insolent AI, eco-collapse, world government, nuclear war, destabilizing weapons, heavy state monitoring, bioweapon genocide, cluttered orbits, loss of "soul" upon uploading, upload copy overpopulation, upload wage competition, virtual reality navel-gazing, torturing copies, invasions of one's mind, wars with aliens, evolutionary pressures toward love of power, igniting the sun, large inequalities in wealth or cognitive abilities, ... I'm less interested in hearing what you don't think are problems than what you do worry about. Once we've indentified the biggest problems, I suggest devoting a separate threat to brainstorming on how to deal with each one. Robin Hanson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 12:35:28 -0700 (PDT) From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) Subject: HEx: New Exchange Regulations Heath Goebel: > I hope this is not the beginning of a slam the brothers Goebel > climate because of their HExchange price manipulations. Not at all! I specifically refrained from naming names (you have to pay me for that!) and the Goebel shares are nowhere close to being the most wildly mispriced. You are to be commended for making the issue public. I note that HEX has started paying fees for services in Thornes. (And, in general, unlimited transfer of Thornes between various accounts, without digital signature security or public reporting, is possible). What kinds of services are worth how much? How large are the fees? I don't care so much who the fees were payed to (and they may want their privacy protected), but it would boost my confidence in HEX and Thornes to have an accounting of the HEX budget -- expenses, receipts, Thorne supply, etc. I'd like to take this opportunity to announce my Private Alert[TM] newsletter, which will provide the inside scoop and analysis on the HEX reputation market. I have extensive experience with real-world markets and have made a significant profit in this market, despite the thin trading. Private Alert[TM] will include special reports not available from the HEX exhange, and information on specific shares that are overpriced, and why. The cost will be p100 per issue. E-mail me to sign up for the first issue. Nick Szabo szabo@techbook.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 20:21:20 +0100 From: Rich Walker Subject: What are big upcoming problems? My current `big problem' I like to think about is the first 15 years of _real_ robotics. I suspect the scenario involves something like 90% of the current workforce in most countries being replaced by machines. Governments, being stupid, will not forsee this, and so 1. The people won't have any money, because the dividends from automatisation will be ploughed back into the profits of the owners... 2. Most people wouldn't have any idea of what to do if they were made redundant tomorrow. This is, needless to say, something I get to think about a lot; in fact, it's the reason I'm working in robotics. In the long term, it will clearly be rather pleasant, but it has the potential for short-term ugliness. Three ways to cope with it? 1. Buy a private security firm. You'll make a fortune from all those paranoid rich people neding to defend themselves against crazed bored unemployed. (and it's one of the last things that'll be automated) 2. If you're on this list, you can already think of 500 things you'd rather do than working. 3. Enter a non-automatable job. Anything creative. (Well, almost anything :->) Rich! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 16:03:37 EDT From: fnerd@smds.com (FutureNerd Steve Witham) Subject: help Dean-- This request is going through to extropians: --Steve > From extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Fri Jul 16 10:11:57 1993 > Return-Path: > Received: by smds.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) > id AA00539; Fri, 16 Jul 93 10:11:56 EDT > Errors-To: extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu > Received: from ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.ed (via ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu) by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP > (5.61/UUNET-internet-primary) id AA02388; Thu, 15 Jul 93 21:03:34 -0400 > Received: by ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu > id AA14215; Thu, 15 Jul 93 20:51:08 EDT > Message-Id: <9307160051.AA14215@ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu> > To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu > Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 17:51:17 -0700 > From: tribble@netcom.com (E. Dean Tribble) > X-Original-Message-Id: <9307160051.AA03525@netcom3.netcom.com> > X-Original-To: extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu > Subject: help > X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on July 16, 373 P.N.O. [00:51:01 UTC] > X-Message-Number: #0219 > Reply-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu > Errors-To: extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu > Status: O > > ::help index > ::help stat > ::help reset > ::help notify > ::help quiet > ::help verbose > ::help resend > ::help list > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 13:59:47 -0700 From: dkrieger@synopsys.com (Dave Krieger) Subject: Metaprogramming experiments Ray, Mark -- Thanks for your replies to my message; I want to address the points both of you raise, but I had a migraine this morning and my neural net is still somewhat randomized. Rather than pollute the list with posts of less than sterling quality, I'm going to wait and reply tomorrow. I didn't mean to undermine Harry's authority with regard to relvant/irrelevant topics; I sent off my reply to Mark's post before I saw the post announcing the moratorium. I do, however, think that this is a very important topic, not only in its own right but also due to the recent meta-flap regarding you-know-what and its relevance to Extropian discussion. We have to clearly delineate what aspects of metaprogramming _are_ extropically relevant, or we'll end up shutting off discussion of technologies that (in my experience, at least) have real self-transformational benefit. I am working on an article for EXTROPY (with the notion of turning it into a mass-market book later on) on a completely different body of self-metaprogramming techniques (one might call them rituals, I guess) that I have been developing recently which require no belief in anything except Minsky's "Society of Mind" hypothesis and Skinnerian conditioning. I will probably bounce a preliminary draft off of this list (or maybe Exi-Essay). Peace and long life. dV/dt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 17:01:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Edward J OConnell Subject: What are big upcoming problems? I worry a lot, about almost everything mentioned on the list; but I'm only barely Extropian. I want to live forever, basically, and I'm pretty smart, and I like technology. Should I mention my SATs?;-) But I feel that many of the things on the list will challenge the structure of the free market, and possibly, in some scenarios, render it quite different in character. I've posted my thoughts on this in a series of essays about 'post scarcity' that most people thought were Marxist crap, exposing as they did my lack of economic sophistication. So be it. Since reading a lot of Dawkins, trying to read MOF, and a few other EC texts, my beliefs have mellowed somewhat. (Anarchocapitalism now has a place in my utopia; as well as a kind of consenting socialism--ultimately, I'd like to see competition in living styles and voting with ones feet...and yes, I'd like to move to Denmark, and give 50% taxation a try...) As an aside, I find it amusing that I spend most of my time struggling to break into the SF market, writing like a demon, to be cast down and filtered by the marketplace; while most Extropians write for the simple joy of expression in this digital commons. I send my stories only to places that pay. I shun the pay in copies markets, and the APAs. Maybe this is the reason I've got the bug up my ass about the market. ;-) (I've got another sale to Aboriginal SF in the works, if anyone cares. Ryan, the editor, describes himself as a Libertarian in a recent editorial...) Extropianism's belief in spontaneous order means that there will be no problems, ultimately, when each local crisis is viewed from the proper perspective. This includes our own personal deaths, once replaced by superior AIs, the complete destruction, er, recycling let us say, of the entire biosphere by grey goo manipulators, etc. From the proper perspective, all is evolutionary. There is no wrong, as there are no 'rights.' However, let us descend to the ugly short term reality. This is where the good stories are. We don't really care about immortal, diamond superbrained robots, because we *aren't* them, yet. Fiction is about the knowable. This is the reason no transcendence is allowed in the Star Trek universe... I worry tremendously about the robot/jobs thing. I've been told on this list that this isn't a problem; that we're seeing local effects here; that the manufacturing class getting roboted out of jobs is an illusion--that more jobs are always created. The EC/Conservative position is simply that people expect too much money/too high a lifestyle, have a government/union to back up their pig headed belief, and we're all made poorer by their unskilled greedy willingness, supported by the welfare state, to not work. Get rid of unions and the minimum wage, and we'll get that manufacturing back. Robots create jobs building and maintaining robots. Machine culture creates endless information/service/entertainment opportunities, and with The Gov. Off Our Backs, everything will be fine. People are protean; they work to live; they figure out what to do in an environment and survive. The minority that can't aren't worth worrying about... (is this what you guys think? Its the best I can paraphrase, anyway...) I on the other hand, think that there will be massive problems with an unemployed/unemployable underclass that swamps the abilities of even the most dedicated prison building programs. SF sees, in these futures, policed zones, areas in which those with wealth live, and work, and lawless expanses in between. Private law, for those who can afford it. I have a story in which private factory prisons become popular, that use some sort of control system on humans, (a chip in the brain) which transforms them into industrial robots. Flesh is better than the robots we have now right? Self repairing. Good visual/perceptual systems, all that stuff Moravec learned the hard way... The only problems with human as robot is the human tendency to get bored and demand more money and time off. These chipped workers don't have this problem. So, the problem is solved! The underclass as *uncomplaining* industrial robot. Middle and upper class jailers/info techs/managers. AIs/expert systems gradually replace them too, and those less talented souls find themselves chipped up in prison, doing time on loitering charges... ahh, a ghastly polemic. It embarrasses even I! I was pissed off when I wrote it. Uploading and autotorture I've written stories on this too. Lets say you can write pretty good code, or whatever, something valuable done intellectually in private, but you don't *like* doing it very much. Lets say uploading is cheap and easy. So, zerox up a whole dungeon of yourself, put them in digital chains, and set them cracking. If your consciousness is your property, this autoslavery will create no problem. But... One can imagine a few such dedicated souls pretty much becoming single person corporations, and dominating the market. These upload slaves work for the electrons it takes to tickle their pain and pleasure centers. (The torture could simply be tasping--the slaves may *like* being enslaved.) Basically they work for free. How could free, (read people with corporeal wants and needs) individuals hope to compete? Talk about cheap immigrant labor! One way around this would be to deny that consciousness is property, and evolve cultural memes that stamp this out whenever it happens. Is this not EC? Probably. Slavery is a difficult issue here. Coercion is wrong; but what about coercing oneself? Don't we HATE people trying to save other people from themselves? I usually do. Here I'll make an exception. Liberators/bounty hunters find and stamp out these auto-slavery-plantations; all uploads are embodied, or freed into the net, and given their fair share of the profits...but what if there are TOO DAMN MANY? How about a process that squeezes a lot of parallel identities into a single organism with a longer internal memory. (all life experiences are stacked side by side; instead of being a thousand copies of me, I'm one copy, with the memory of a thousand lifetimes...) Hmmmm. Interesting idea. I've never had this thought. So this post is worthwhile! For me anyway. Hope it amused some others. Jay PS Now working on a rationality agent story set in a more or less anarchocapitalist future; take off on the Philip Marlow thing. Hope it sells. Then I'll know its good! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 19:11:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Moore Subject: PHIL: Free will? On Thu, 15 Jul 1993, Mike Wiik wrote: > > FYI-- In philosophy the view that free will > > is inherent in all reality is called..."libertarianism". > > Ok, but a philosophy is still a belief. I want cold hard facts. > And I'm working on it :) > But even all those "cold hard facts" of quantum physics are subject to a variety of interpretations: realism, idealism, many worlds, holographic universe, etc etc. In there end we may have to rely on philosophy. (-: cmoore@cap.gwu.edu :-) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 19:27:34 EDT From: eisrael@suneast.east.sun.com (Elias Israel - SunSelect Engineering) Subject: Metaprogramming experiments: I was conditioned to respond in this manner... Dave Krieger writes: > I am working on an article for EXTROPY (with the notion of turning it into > a mass-market book later on) on a completely different body of > self-metaprogramming techniques (one might call them rituals, I guess) that > I have been developing recently which require no belief in anything except > Minsky's "Society of Mind" hypothesis and Skinnerian conditioning. I will > probably bounce a preliminary draft off of this list (or maybe Exi-Essay). Yuck! I'm sure your article will be great, but frankly, I'd much rather imagine I'm chanelling just about any mystic figure you could name than pollute my brain with anything from The Flenser. Elias Israel eisrael@east.sun.com HEx Symbol: E ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jun 93 15:38:41 PDT From: "Mark W. McFadden" Subject: sell mwm 100 20 ______________________________________________________________________ Mark W. McFadden | Been there.....done that. mwm@wwtc.timeplex.com | ___________________________________|__________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jul 1993 18:35:52 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: Forward/Vegan: ADA Position Paper a conscious being, Ferrell S. Wheeler wrote: >From veggie@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Fri Jul 16 14:29:21 1993 Date: Fri, 16 Jul 93 18:29:21 -0400 Message-Id: <9307162228.AA09023@super.super.org> Errors-To: crunchy@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Reply-To: wheeler@super.org Originator: veggie@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Sender: veggie@gibbs.oit.unc.edu Precedence: bulk From: wheeler@super.org (Ferrell S. Wheeler) To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: ADA Position Paper X-Listserver-Version: 6.0 -- UNIX ListServer by Anastasios Kotsikonas Position of the American Dietetic Association: Vegetarian Diets -- technical support paper Authors: Suzanne Havala, R.D. and Johanna Dwyer, D.SC., R.D. Reviewers: Phyllis Acosta, Dr. P.H., R.D.; George Eisman, R.D.; Alice Marsh, R.D.; Connie Metcalf, R.D.; Patricia Mutch, Ph.D., R.D.; U. D. Register, Ph.D., R.D. Kathleen Zolber, Ph.D., R.D. From: Journal of the American Dietetic Association, March, 1988, Volume 88, Number 3, pp. 352-355. The attention focused today on personal health habits is unprecedented, as more and more Americans adopt health-promoting life-styles that include alterations in diet and exercise patterns. Simultaneously, there has been a marked rise in interest in vegetarian diets. A considerable body of scientific data suggests positive relationships between vegetarian life-styles and risk reduction for several chronic degenerative diseases and conditions, such as obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, diabetes mellitus, colon cancer, and others. The high incidence of such diseases in industrialized nations, as compared with other cultures, warrants special attention to diet and other factors in life-styles that may vary between vegetarians and nonvegetarians. It is the position of The American Dietetic Association that vegetarian diets are healthful and nutritionally adequate when appropriately planned. Both vegetarian and nonvegetarian diets have the potential to be either beneficial or detrimental to health. Sound nutrition planning may result in risk reduction and control of some diseases and conditions by dietary measures, whereas poorly planned or haphazard diets increase the likelihood of diet-related disorders of deficiency or excess. However, in addition to the possible health benefits of some vegetarian diets, consideration may also be given to ecological, economical, and philosophical or ethical reasons for adopting such a diet. It may be easier, as well as more acceptable, for some individuals to meet the Dietary Guidelines for Americans by following a vegetarian diet rather than a nonvegetarian diet (1). VEGETARIANISM IN PERSPECTIVE There is no single vegetarian eating pattern. From the standpoint of nutritional health, vegetarian diets are distinguished from one another by (a) the extent to which the foods included vary, (b) the degree to which the diets are planned to correspond to the findings of nutritional sciences, and (c) the health attitudes and practices that are associated with the diets. Vegetarian diets differ in the extent to which they avoid animal products. Veganism, or total vegetarianism, completely excludes meat, fish, fowl, eggs, and dairy products. Lacto-vegetarianism is the avoidance of meat, fish, fowl and eggs, whereas ovo-lacto-vegetarianism involves avoidance of only meat, fish, or fowl. Semi-vegetarian patterns allow limited amounts of most animal foods. In addition to proscriptions on animal foods, some vegetarian diets also incorporate restrictions on other foods and beverages, such as honey, alcohol, caffeinated beverages, highly processed foods, and foods that are grown or processed nonorganically or with certain additives and preservatives. Finally, some patterns include the addition of special foods or practices that are thought to have unique health promotive or curative properties. Included are vitamin-mineral supplements, dietary fiber and essential fatty acid supplements, health foods, herbal teas, and practices such as periodic fasting. Since vegetarianism is a term that encompasses such a wide variety of eating patterns, nutrition assessment of such diets is difficult without information about specific food avoidances and health-related attitudes and practices. The differences may have a significant impact on nutritional status (2). Studies of vegetarians indicate that this population generally has lower mortality rates from several chronic degenerative diseases than do non- vegetarians. It is likely that the effects are due not to diet alone but also to a healthy life-style, including desirable weight, regular physical activity, and abstinence from smoking, alcohol, and illicit drugs, with adequate health monitoring (3-6). Even though the health benefits of a vegetarian diet make it attractive from a nutrition standpoint, this does not preclude the possibility of obtaining similar health benefits from a prudent nonvegetarian diet if it can be planned in accordance with the Dietary Guidelines for Americans. However, in addition to health aspects, considerations that may lead to the adoption of a vegetarian diet include: ecological implications of eating low on the food chain with regard to preservation of the environ- ment or for the perceived solution to world hunger problems by decreasing the demand on the world's food resources; economic reasons, since diets low in animal proteins are typically less expensive than meat-based diets; and philosophical or ethical reasons, which include animal rights issues and attitudes toward violence. Still other individuals are motivated by religious beliefs. IMPLICATIONS FOR HEALTH PROMOTION Mortality from coronary artery disease is lower in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (7,8). Total serum cholesterol and LDL cholesterol levels are usually lower, while HDL cholesterol and triglyceride levels vary depending on the type of vegetarian diet that is followed (9-12). Vegetarian diets that are typically very low in fat and cholesterol may decrease levels of apoproteins A, B, and E (12). Platelet composition and possible platelet functions may very, and plasma viscosity may be decreased (13). Such effects may be attributed to the vegetarian's lower intake of total fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol, along with lower weight, increased physical activity, and abstinence from smoking (10, 14,15). Vegetarians generally have lower blood pressures and lower rates of Type II diabetes than do nonvegetarians, which may decrease the risk of coronary artery disease in the vegetarian population. Vegetarians of the Seventh-Day Adventist faith have lower rates of mortality from colon cancer than does the general population (4). That may be due to dietary differences which include increased fiber intake, decreased intake of total fat, cholesterol, and caffeine, increased intakes of fruits and vegetables, and, in lacto-vegetarians, increased intake of calcium (16). Although it is still speculative, the dietary differences, especially in vegans, may produce physiological changes that may inhibit the causal chain for colon cancer (16,17). Lung cancer rates are lower in many types of vegetarians because they typically do not smoke or, possibly, because of their increased intake of beta carotene or other constituents of fruits and vegetables that may also lower lung cancer risk (18). Preliminary evidence suggests that vegetarians may be at lower risk for breast cancer, but further study is indicated (19). Obesity is a complicating condition exacerbating many diseases. Vegetarians, especially vegans, have weights that are closer to desirable weights than do nonvegetarians (20). Several factors may be involved, including moderation in energy intakes, increased physical activity, and better regulation of food intake. The high-carbohydrate, low-fat vegetarian diet, in combination with exercise, may decrease the risk of obesity (21). Vegetarians are at lower risk for noninsulin-dependent diabetes, partly because they are leaner than nonvegetarians (22,23). The vegetarians' high intake of complex carbohydrates, with its relatively high fiber content, improves carbohydrate metabolism, lowering basal glucose levels (24,25). Finally, vegetarians have lower rates of osteoporosis, kidney stones, gallstones, and diverticular disease (29-31). Studies documenting these benefits, however, are inconclusive at this time, and reasons may be related to aspects of life-style other than diet. Vegetarians have lower rates of hypertension than do nonvegetarians, which may be due to vegetarians' relative leanness (26,27). Other aspects of life-style may also be involved (28), such as dietary habits, increased physical activity, and abstinence from smoking. NUTRITION CONSIDERATIONS The body's need for essential amino acids can be met by consumption of animal or plant sources of protein since, after absorption, amino acids from exogenous and endogenous sources combine in the body's protein pool (32). Plant foods contain less of the essential amino acids than do equivalent quantities of animal food, but a plant-based diet provides adequate amounts of amino acids when a varied diet is consumed on a daily basis. A mixture of proteins from unrefined grains, legumes, seeds, nuts, and vegetables will complement one another in their amino acid profiles so that deficits in one are made up by another. Intakes of different types of protein that complement one another should be eaten over the course of the day. However, since endogenous sources of amino acids are also available, it is not necessary that complementation of amino acid profiles be precise and at exactly the same meal, as the recently popular "combined protein theory" suggested. This theory urged conscious combining of proteins at every meal with the caveat that malnutrition would ensue if this was not done within a strict time interval (33). Although vegetarian diets usually meet or exceed requirements for protein, they typically provide less protein than nonvegetarian diets. This lower protein intake may be beneficial, however, and may be associated with a lower risk of osteoporosis in vegetarians and improved kidney function in individuals with prior kidney damage (34,35). Further, a lower protein intake generally translates into a lower fat diet with its inherent advantages, since foods high in protein are frequently also high in fat. Plant carbohydrates are accompanied by liberal amounts of dietary fiber, which has been shown to be important in the prevention and treatment of disease. Foods derived from animal sources contain no fiber. Complex carbohydrates from plants also improve glucose tolerance, as previously noted. Vegetarian diets that are low in animal foods are typically lower than nonvegetarian diets in total fat, saturated fat, and cholesterol, an important factor in risk reduction for heart disease and some forms of cancer. The ratio of polyunsaturated and monounsaturated fats to saturated fats is also more favorable in a largely plant-based diet. Vegetarians and nonvegetarians alike may have difficulty meeting recommendations for iron. Absorption of dietary iron is enhanced by concurrent consumption of ascorbic acid or animal foods; it is inhibited by the intake of tea, fiber, and phytates (36). Western vegetarians generally have better iron status than those in developing countries. The former have a relatively high intake of iron from plant foods, such as dark green leafy vegetables, iron-fortified cereals, and whole grains. They may take supplements of ascorbic acid or iron and have a greater intake of ascorbic acid from plant foods. In contrast, vegetarians in developing countries consume less ascorbic acid and animal protein, rely on low-iron food staples, and consume more fiber and tea than do Westerners (37). The requirement for vitamin B-12 is minute, but there is no vitamin B-12 in anything that grows from the soil. It is, however, contained in all animal foods; hence, a diet that includes animal foods, such as dairy products, is unlikely to be deficient in vitamin B-12. Bacteria produce vitamin B-12 in the human gut, but it appears to be produced beyond the ileum, the site of absorption in the intestine. Ninety-five percent of what is produced is actually inactive vitamin B-12 analogs. The need for vitamin B-12 is very small, and lack of intrinsic factor is a more common cause of vitamin B-12 deficiency than lack of vitamin B-12 in the diet. Nevertheless, adequate vitamin B-12 intake is a legitimate concern for Western vegans. In countries where sanitary conditions are poor, contamination of foods with microbes and organisms that produce the vitamin may contribute all that is needed. In Western countries, however, where sanitary practices are better, the risk of vitamin B-12 deficiency is greater. Vegans must include a reliable source of vitamin B-12 in their diets or be at risk of eventually developing a deficiency. However, food labeling of vitamin B-12 can be misleading. The vitamin B-12 content of most foods in the United States has been determined by use of a microbiological assay which measures not only physiologically active forms of vitamin B-12 for human subjects but also inactive vitamin B-12 analogs. By microbiological assay, as much as 80% to 94% of the so- called vitamin B-12 in fermented plant foods, such as tempeh, and in other plant foods may be inactive vitamin B-12 analogs. Some of the of vitamin B-12 analogs also compete with active forms of vitamin B-12 for absorption. Thus, vegans should supplement their diets with a source of vitamin B-12 such as a cobalamin supplement or select appropriately fortified foods that meet the Recommended Dietary Allowances to ensure an adequate intake of the active form of the nutrient. Further research on vitamin B-12 is needed, as there is a great deal that is not clearly understood regarding available sources of vitamin B-12 for vegans. Calcium absorption appears to be inhibited by such plant consti- tuents as phytic acid, oxalic acid, and fiber, but this effect may not be significant. Calcium deficiency in vegetarians is rare, and there is little evidence to show that low intakes of calcium give rise to major health problems among the vegetarian population. One recent study has shown that vegetarians absorb and retain more calcium from foods than do nonvegetarians (38). Other studies cite lower rates of osteoporosis in vegetarians than in nonvegetarians (29). Reliance on sunshine alone, particularly in northern climates or in cultures where most of the body is concealed in clothing, may not provide all the vitamin D needed to protect children against rickets (39). For those who do not use vitamin D-fortified milk products, a vitamin D supplement may be necessary, especially for dark-skinned individuals and for infants whose only source of vitamin D is breast milk after 4 to 6 months of age. GROUPS WITH SPECIAL NEEDS Those whose nutrient needs are especially high because of growth, lactation, or recovery from illness will find it especially helpful to consult a registered dietitian or other qualified nutrition professional for expert help in diet planning. Infants and children who consume well-planned vegetarian diets including milk products or eggs can generally meet all of their nutritional requirements for growth. Those who follow vegan or vegan-like diets which include no animal products can be healthy, but more care must be taken to ensure adequacy. Vitamin D and iron supplements, in addition to vitamin B-12 at levels sufficient to meet the Recommended Dietary Allowances, may need to be provided (40). ================================================================ Vegetarians are at lower risk for noninsulin-dependent diabetes and have lower rates of hypertension, osteoporosis, kidney stones, gallstones, and diverticular disease than nonvegetarians ---------------------------------------------------------------- Vegan diets tend to be high in bulk, which makes it more challenging to meet energy needs, especially for infants, children and adolescents (41). Further, care must be taken to obtain enough vitamins D and B-12. A properly fortified soy product may be helpful. Both vegetarians and nonvegetarians whose infants are premature or are breast fed exclusively beyond 4 to 6 months of age should provide supplements of vitamin D and iron from birth or at least by 4 to 6 months, as medical guidance suggests. The guidelines of the American Academy of Pediatrics for supplementation of infants are helpful (42). Well-planned vegetarian diets are adequate for pregnant and lactating women. With both vegetarian and nonvegetarian diets, iron and folate supplements are usually necessary during pregnancy, although vegetarians frequently have greater intakes of those nutrients than do nonvegetarians. MEAL PLANNING In planning vegetarian diets of any type, one should choose a wide variety of foods, which may include fruits, vegetables, whole grain food products, nuts, seeds, legumes, low-fat dairy products or fortified soy substitutes, and a limited number of eggs. Additionally, the following recommendations are made (43,44): * Keep the intake of low nutrient-dense foods, such as sweets and fatty foods, to a minimum * Choose whole or unrefined grain products whenever possible, instead of refined products. * Use a variety of fruits and vegetables, including a good food source of vitamin C to enhance iron absorption. * If milk products are consumed, use low-fat varieties. * Limit intake of eggs to two to three yolks per week to ensure that cholesterol intakes are not excessive. * For vegans, use a properly fortified food source of vitamin B-12, such as fortified soy milks or breakfast cereals, or take a cobalamin supplement. * For infants and children, ensure adequate intakes of iron, vitamin D, and energy. * Consult a registered dietitian or other qualified nutrition professional. The Dietary Guidelines for Americans recommend a reduction in fat intake and an increased consumption of fruits and vegetables, and whole grains. Well-planned vegetarian diets effectively meet these guidelines and the Recommended Dietary Allowances and can be confidently embraced as a healthy dietary alternative. However, vegetarians, particularly total vegetarians, living in a nonvegetarian society such as the United States, must be aware that foods most readily available in this culture may not be those which are most appropriate for their eating patterns; thus, vegetarians must pay special attention to ensuring nutrient adequacy. Additionally, both vegetarians and nonvegetarians must obtain adequate health monitoring throughout the life cycle. REFERENCES (1) Calson, E., Kipps, M., Lockie, a., and Thomson, J.: A comparative eval- uation of vegan, vegetarian and omnivore diets. J Plant Foods 6:89, 1985. (2) Dwyer, J. T.: 1983 Nutrition status and alternative lifestyle diets with special reference to vegetarianism in the USA. In Reichaig, M., ed.: CRC Handbook of Nutritional Supplements. Vol. 1. Human Use. Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press, 1983, pp. 343-410. (3) Kahn, R. H., Phillips, R. L., Snowdon, D. A., and Choi, W.: Association between reported diet and all cause mortality: Twenty-one year follow up on 27,530 adult Seventh Day Adventists. Am J Epidemiol 119:775, 1984. (4) Phillips, R.L., Garfinkel, L., Kuzma, J.W., Beeson, W.L., Lotz, T., and Brian,B.: Mortality among California Seventh Day Adventists for selected cancer sites. J Nat Cancer Inst 65:1097, 1980. (5) The diet and all causes death rate in the Seven Countries study. Lancet 2:58, 1981. (6) Kromhout, D., Bosschieter, E.B., and de Lezenne Coulander, C.: Dietary fiber and 10 year mortality from coronary heart disease, cancer, and all causes. Lancet 2:518, 1982. (7) Burr, M.L., and Sweetnam, P.M.: Vegetarianism, dietary fiber, and mortality. Am J Clin Nutr 36:873, 1982. (8) Phillips, R.L., Kuzma, J.W., Beeson, W.L., and Lotz, T.: Influence of selection versus lifestyle on risk of fatal cancer and cardiovascular disease among Seventh Day Adventists. Am j Epidemiol 112:296, 1980. (9) Sacks, F.M., Ornish, D., Rosner, B., McLanahan, S., Castelli, W.P., and Kass, E.H.: Plasma lipoproteins in vegetarians: The effect of intake of dietary fat. JAMA 254:1337, 1985. (10) Knuiman, J.T., and West, C.E.: The concentration of cholesterol in serum and in various serum lipoproteins in macrobiotic, vegetarian, and nonvegetarian men and boys. Atherosclerosis 43:71, 1982. (11) Masarei, J.R.L., Rouse, I.L., Lynch, W.J., Robertson, K., Vandongen, R., and Beilin, L.J.: Effects of a lactoovovegetarian diet on serum concentrations of cholesterol, triglyceride, HDL-C, HDL-2-C, HDL-3-C, apoprotein B, and Lp(a). Am J Clin Nutr 40:468, 1984. (12) Cooper, R.S., Goldberge, R.B., Trevisan, M., Tsong, Y., Liu, K., Stamler, J., Rubenstein, A., and Scanu, A.M.: The selective lipid lowering effect of vegetarianism on low density lipoproteins in a crossover experiment. Atherosclerosis 44:293, 1982. (13) Fisher, M., Levine, P.H., Weiner, B., Ockens, I.S., Johnson, B., Johnson, M.H., Natale, A.M., Vaudreuil, C.H., and Hoogasian, J.: The effect of vegetarian diets on plasma lipid and platelet levels. Arch Intern Med 146:1193, 1986. (14) Sacks, F.M., Miller, L., Sutherland, M., Albers, J.J., Salazar, J., Foster, J.M., Samonds, K.W., and Kass, E.H.: Ingestion of egg raises plasma low density lipoproteins in free living subjects. Lancet 1:647, 1984. (15) Renoud, S., Godsey, F., Dumont, E., Thevonen, C., Ortchanian, E., and Martin, J.L.: Influence on longterm diet modification on platelet function and composition on Moselle farmers. Am J Clin Nutr 43:136, 1986. (16) Turjiman, N., Goodman, G.T., Jaeger, B., and Nair, P.P.: Diet, nutrition intake and metabolism in populations at high and low risk for colon cancer: Metabolism of bile acids. Am J Clin Nutr 4:937, 1984. (17) Adlercreutz, H.: Does fiber rich food containing animal lignan precursors protect against both colon and breast cancer? An extension of the fiber hypothesis. Gastroenterology 86:761, 1984. (18) Golditz, G.Z., Stampfer, M.J., and Willett, W.C.: Diet and lung cancer: A review of the epidemiological evidence in humans. Arch Intern Med 147:157, 1987. (19) Goldin, B.R.: The metabolism of the intestinal microflora and its relationship to dietary fat, colon and breast cancer. In Ip, C., Birt, D., Rogers, A., and Mettlin, C., eds.: Dietary Fat and Cancer. New York: Alan R. Liss, 1986. (20) Bergan, J.G., and Brown, P.T.: Nutritional status of "new" vegetarians. J Am Diet Assoc 76:151, 1980. (21) Bray, G.A.: Obesity: A disease of nutrient or energy balance? Nutr Rev 45:33, 1987. (22) West, K.M., and Kalbfleisch, J.M.: Glucose tolerance, nutrition, and diabetes in Uruguay, Venezuela, Malaya, and East Pakistan. Diabetes 15:9, 1966. (23) West, K.M., and Kalbfleisch, J.M.: Influence of nutritional factors on prevalence of diabetes. Diabetes 20:99, 1971. (24) Stevens, J., Burgess, M.B., Kaiser, D.L., and Sheppa, C.M.: Outpatient management of diabetes mellitus with patient education to increase dietary carbohydrate and fiber. Diabetes Care 8:359, 1985. (25) Munoz, J.M.: Fiber and diabetes. Diabetes Care 7:297, 1984. (26) Page, L.B.: Hypertension and atherosclerosis in primitive and acculturating societies. In Hunt, J.C., ed.: Hypertension Update. Bloomfield, NH: Health Learning Systems, 1980. (27) Reisin, E., Abel, R., Modan, M., Silverber, D., Eliahou, H., and Modan, B.: Effect of weight loss without salt restriction on the reduction of blood pressure in overweight hypertensive patients. N Engl J Med 298:1, 1978. (28) Rouse, I.L., Beilin, L.J., Armstrong, B.K., and Vandongen, R.: Vegetarian diet, blood pressure, and cardiovascular risk. Aust NZ J Med 14:439, 1984. (29) Marsh, A.G., Sanchez, T.V., Mickelsen, O., Keiser, J., and Mayor, G.: Cortical bone density of adult lactoovovegetarians and omnivorous women. J Am Diet Assoc 76:148, 1980. (30) Pixley, F., Wilson, D., McPherson, K., and Mann, J.: Effect of veget- arianism on development of gallstones in women. Br Med J 291:11, 1985. (31) Gear, J.S., Ware, A., Fursdon, P., Mann, J.I., Nolan, D.J., Brodribb, A.J., and Vessey, M.P.: Symptomless diverticular disease and intake of dietary fiber. Lancet 1:511, 1979. (32) Scrimshaw, N.S.: Nature of protein requirements. J Am Diet Assoc 54:94, 1969. (33) Hardinge, M.G., Crooks, H., and Stare, F.J.: Nutritional studies of vegetarians: 5. Proteins and essential amino acids. J Am Diet Assoc 48:25, 1966. (34) Osteoporosis Consensus Conference. National Institutes of Health, Bethesda, MD, 1984. (35) El Nahas, A.M., and Coles, G.A.: Dietary treatment of chronic renal failure: Ten unanswered questions. Lancet 1:597, 1986. (36) International Nutritional Anemia Consultative Group. The Effects of Cereals and Legumes on Iron Availability. Washington, DC: Nutrition Foundation, 1982. (37) Sanders, T.A.B.: Vegetarianism: Dietetic and medical aspects. J Plant Foods 5:3, 1983. (38) Nnakwe, N., and Kies, C.: Calcium and phosphorus utilization by omnivores and lactoovovegetarians fed laboratory controlled lactovegetarian diets. Nutr Rep Int 31:1009, 1985. (39) Curtis, J.A., Kooh, S.W., Fraser, D., and Greenberg, M.L.: Nutritional rickets in vegetarian children. Can Med Assoc J 128:150, 1983. (40) Vyhmeister, I.B., Register, U.D., and Sonnenberg, L.M.: Safe vegetarian diets for children. Pediatr Clin North Am 24:203, 1977. (41) Truesdell, D.D., and Acosta, P.B.: Feeding the vegan infant and child. J Am Diet Assoc 85:837, 1985. (42) Committee on Nutrition, American Academy of Pediatrics: Vitamin and mineral supplement needs in normal children in the United States. Pediatrics 66:1015, 1980. (43) American Dietetic Association: Position paper on the vegetarian approach to eating. J Am Diet Assoc 77:61, 1980. (44) Register, U.D., and Crooks, H.: Nutritionally adequate vegetarian diets. In Reichaig, M., ed.: CRC Handbook of Nutritional Supplements, Vol 1. Human Use. Boca Raton, FL: CRC Press, 1980. -- Harry S. Hawk habs@panix.com Electronic Communications Officer, Extropy Institute Inc. List Administrator of the Extropy Institute Mailing List Private Communication for the Extropian Community since 1991 ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 Issue #0394 ****************************************