77 Message 77: From exi@panix.com Fri Jul 23 13:25:25 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA29725; Fri, 23 Jul 93 13:25:22 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA24872; Fri, 23 Jul 93 13:24:56 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by panix.com id AA02715 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for more@usc.edu); Fri, 23 Jul 1993 16:18:47 -0400 Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 16:18:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199307232018.AA02715@panix.com> To: Exi@panix.com From: Exi@panix.com (List Processing System) Subject: X-Extropian-Date: July 23, 373 P.N.O. [20:18:33 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: R Fri, 23 Jul 93 Volume 93 : Issue 203 Today's Topics: [2 msgs] 133 years old [1 msgs] ADMIN: List Software Update [1 msgs] Extropy [1 msgs] HA-HA-ONLY-SERIOUS: that gene [1 msgs] HEX: Bad trade [1 msgs] Homosexual tendencies (was: future problems) [2 msgs] Homosexual tendencies (was: future problems) [1 msgs] IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT FOR YOUR BABY? [1 msgs] META: Jokes? Forgeries? Re: Rebellion Gene/Bland Parenthood [2 msgs] My Worry, Guns, and Social Security [1 msgs] NANO: Processing power [1 msgs] Nightly Market Report [1 msgs] POLI: School vouchers [1 msgs] Wage Competition [1 msgs] Administrivia: Approximate Size: 54691 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 19:28:40 -0700 From: jamie@netcom.com (Jamie Dinkelacker) Subject: Homosexual tendencies (was: future problems) So what? Yes, abortion ethics regarding prefered fetus and sociology du-jour is an issue. But why the excitement over "individual tendencies"? I haven't seen the gay community advocate their perspective any more (or less) than the Rabid Christian Right, Citizens for the American Way, the NRA, MADD, the United Way, the NAACP, the Tobacco Institute, or any other group with media access. Before long we may have Venusian Klaghorn Visitation Rights on the venue as well. Let them be. In terms of Dynamic Optimism why the kvetching? Or, from the perspective of Self Transformation, who cares about the specific orientation of other individuals? Gays are human, and they'll probably be trans/post human, too. For sex, I want a female. But generally, I just don't care about other individuals' sexual orientation, or religion, or birthplace, or sex, or race, their favorite menu, their roommate (or if they're truly sinfully subversive they may even live alone), ... Jamie@netcom.com 415-941-4782 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1993 13:36:45 BST From: "Lindsey P. Redding" Subject: Extropy Greetings Extropians, I found a piece about the Extropian movement in a copy of "Wired" brought back by a friend from holiday in the US. Do your boundless horizons extend as far as Scotland? Can I get a subscription to your magazine over here, or even better is the text available on-line? Regards Lindsey P. Redding at Lindsey_P._Redding@metro.mactel.org **************************************************************************** MacTel Metro - Europes largest Mac specific BBS This message was created from a user account on a FirstClass(tm) BBS. The views expressed in this posting those of the individual author only. Send mail to this user at either :- INTERNET:User_Name@metro.mactel.org [use underline] between first FIDONET:User.Name@f202.n253.z2.fidonet.org [use fullstop ] & last names **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 21:47:57 -0600 (MDT) From: J. Michael Diehl Subject: POLI: School vouchers According to Alexander Chislenko: > I just heard it from a colleague of mine, who read a short article in > Boston Globe (if you have more info, please share it!). > California just enacted the voucher program which allows parents to > take the state money for the child's education to a private school, > including religious. Paying tax money for subsidizing religious > "education" is a somewhat thorny issue, but with a strong influence > of [conventional] religious organizations it might have made the whole > thing easier... > Now, the Witches' Coven [sp.?] decided to run a school too... > And *this* Christians are not that happy about... > Tax money for withcraft? What about Satanic cult? Or neo-pagans? > They seem to have some pretty interesting discussions ahead... Well, I am a Christian and I don't see anything wrong with having schools run by tye WC. Just as long as you will allow me to practice my religion in the manner I see fit. > |---------------------------------------------------------------------------| > | This sig space is for rent - if you have any idea worth distributing, | > | I would consider including it here. | > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- You don't give me very much space, do you? ;^) +-----------------------+-----------------------------+---------+ | J. Michael Diehl ;-) | I thought I was wrong once. | PGP KEY | | mdiehl@triton.unm.edu | But, I was mistaken. |available| | mike.diehl@fido.org | | Ask Me! | | (505) 299-2282 +-----------------------------+---------+ | | +------"I'm just looking for the opportunity to be -------------+ | Politically Incorrect!" | +-----If codes are outlawed, only criminals wil have codes.-----+ +----Is Big Brother in your phone? If you don't know, ask me---+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 22:17:46 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: HA-HA-ONLY-SERIOUS: that gene Quoth Bland Parenthood, verily I say unto thee: -=>Now Timmy must pay the price. Timmy will probably never be happy in -=>society, because he is genetically incapable of surrendering his will to -=>the majority. Where do *I* get one of those?! -- Stanton McCandlish * Space Migration * Networking * ChaOrder * NO GOV'T. * anton@hydra.unm.edu * Intelligence Increase * Nano * Crypto * NO RELIGION * FidoNet: 1:301/2 * Life Extension * Ethics * VR * Now! * NO MORE LIES! * Noise in the Void BBS * +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400, v32bis, N-8-1) * ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 22:21:43 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT FOR YOUR BABY? -=>are you saying that ALL "birth-defects" even slight and somewhat manageable -=>such as timmy's is justification for an abortion? with thinking like this, -=>we would want to eliminate brown-eyed babies because they are not as -=>acceptable in todays society as blue-eyed babies (think of all the abuse, -=>rejection, etc. that they may face in the future if they are to be born!) First off, that was pretty clearly satire. VERY clearly, I'll amend. Secondly, considering that browneyed people are INcreasing in numbers, and that shit programs like the Equal Opportunity Ammendment -based Affirmative Action are subltly slamming those who are NOT dark of eye and hide, the proposition that such people will be subject to "abuse, rejection, etc." in the future is unlikely to be borne out. Probably the opposite. -- Stanton McCandlish * Space Migration * Networking * ChaOrder * NO GOV'T. * anton@hydra.unm.edu * Intelligence Increase * Nano * Crypto * NO RELIGION * FidoNet: 1:301/2 * Life Extension * Ethics * VR * Now! * NO MORE LIES! * Noise in the Void BBS * +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400, v32bis, N-8-1) * ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 23:20:59 -0600 (MDT) From: J. Michael Diehl Subject: My Worry, Guns, and Social Security According to starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu: > > >From: Carol Moore > >Subject: Potlach/Tithing/Jubillee --was/Re: Another Worry > > > >Gary Kleck, Criminologist at Florida State University, Americans > >use their privately owned firearms -- handguns, rifles, and > >shotguns -- 1.4 million times every year to \save\ innocent > >lives. Let me say that another way. Three thousand, eight > >hundred times a day, an American firearm owner uses her or his > >firearm to prevent a rape, a robbery, or a burglary. In 99% of > >those thirty-eight hundred daily firearm defenses, no one is shot > >at all -- and because non-violence is non-news, \you\ never hear > >about it. > > > > Let me put this statistic in perspective. During the > >fifteen-minute period in which a psycho murdered nine people at a > >San Francisco law office, forty \ordinary\ Americans used their > >privately owned firearms to \stop\ a crime, without shooting > >anyone. Good info!!! Thanx! > This is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the protective power of > guns. ISIL's preparing a pamphlet by David Kopel on gun policy that has a > whole lot more, e.g.: trying to defend yourself from a robber with a gun > reduces the robber's success rate from 88% to 30%. We'll be publishing it > after we finish editing it. How do I get a copy? > I agree with Nick that retirement is evil; Perry, your father's disabled, not > retired. May he live long and prosper! I don't think any Social Security > reform is politically feasible in the sense that any majority of Congress > will vote for it right now, so I see no reason not to advocate an extreme > position: transfer money equivalent to the amount people have put in into > pension fund accounts from which they may purchase disability insurance. > Works like a dream in Chile! Then voluntarize the saving. What is this? Another Conservative on this list? (besides me) But do you remember the story of the grasshopper and the ant. The ant saved all summer, and the grasshopper played all summer. In the end, the ant supported the grasshopper by feeding him through the winter. How would we avoid this problem if we abolished Wf? > The International Society for Individual Liberty, More info, please. > Think Universally, Act Selfishly - starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu Interesting twist on Capitalism? +-----------------------+-----------------------------+---------+ | J. Michael Diehl ;-) | I thought I was wrong once. | PGP KEY | | mdiehl@triton.unm.edu | But, I was mistaken. |available| | mike.diehl@fido.org | | Ask Me! | | (505) 299-2282 +-----------------------------+---------+ | | +------"I'm just looking for the opportunity to be -------------+ | Politically Incorrect!" | +-----If codes are outlawed, only criminals wil have codes.-----+ +----Is Big Brother in your phone? If you don't know, ask me---+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 23:20:59 -0600 (MDT) From: J. Michael Diehl Subject: My Worry, Guns, and Social Security According to starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu: > > >From: Carol Moore > >Subject: Potlach/Tithing/Jubillee --was/Re: Another Worry > > > >Gary Kleck, Criminologist at Florida State University, Americans > >use their privately owned firearms -- handguns, rifles, and > >shotguns -- 1.4 million times every year to \save\ innocent > >lives. Let me say that another way. Three thousand, eight > >hundred times a day, an American firearm owner uses her or his > >firearm to prevent a rape, a robbery, or a burglary. In 99% of > >those thirty-eight hundred daily firearm defenses, no one is shot > >at all -- and because non-violence is non-news, \you\ never hear > >about it. > > > > Let me put this statistic in perspective. During the > >fifteen-minute period in which a psycho murdered nine people at a > >San Francisco law office, forty \ordinary\ Americans used their > >privately owned firearms to \stop\ a crime, without shooting > >anyone. Good info!!! Thanx! > This is only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the protective power of > guns. ISIL's preparing a pamphlet by David Kopel on gun policy that has a > whole lot more, e.g.: trying to defend yourself from a robber with a gun > reduces the robber's success rate from 88% to 30%. We'll be publishing it > after we finish editing it. How do I get a copy? > I agree with Nick that retirement is evil; Perry, your father's disabled, not > retired. May he live long and prosper! I don't think any Social Security > reform is politically feasible in the sense that any majority of Congress > will vote for it right now, so I see no reason not to advocate an extreme > position: transfer money equivalent to the amount people have put in into > pension fund accounts from which they may purchase disability insurance. > Works like a dream in Chile! Then voluntarize the saving. What is this? Another Conservative on this list? (besides me) But do you remember the story of the grasshopper and the ant. The ant saved all summer, and the grasshopper played all summer. In the end, the ant supported the grasshopper by feeding him through the winter. How would we avoid this problem if we abolished Wf? > The International Society for Individual Liberty, More info, please. > Think Universally, Act Selfishly - starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu Interesting twist on Capitalism? +-----------------------+-----------------------------+---------+ | J. Michael Diehl ;-) | I thought I was wrong once. | PGP KEY | | mdiehl@triton.unm.edu | But, I was mistaken. |available| | mike.diehl@fido.org | | Ask Me! | | (505) 299-2282 +-----------------------------+---------+ | | +------"I'm just looking for the opportunity to be -------------+ | Politically Incorrect!" | +-----If codes are outlawed, only criminals wil have codes.-----+ +----Is Big Brother in your phone? If you don't know, ask me---+ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 23:59:53 EDT From: The Hawthorne Exchange Subject: Nightly Market Report The Hawthorne Exchange - HEx Nightly Market Report For more information on HEx, send email to HEx@sea.east.sun.com with the Subject info. --------------------------------------------------------------- News Summary as of: Thu Jul 22 23:59:04 EDT 1993 Newly Registered Reputations: MORE Max More SHAWN Shawn O'Connor SHAWN Shawn O'Connor New Share Issues: Symbol Shares Issued MORE 10000 Share Splits: (None) --------------------------------------------------------------- Market Summary as of: Thu Jul 22 23:59:05 EDT 1993 Total Shares Symbol Bid Ask Last Issued Outstanding Market Value ACS - .30 .60 10000 124 74.40 ALCOR 3.80 7.50 3.00 10000 2421 7263.00 ANTO - - - - - - BLAIR 5.00 30.00 50.00 10000 25 1250.00 CHAITN - - - - - - DEREK 2.65 2.70 3.00 100000 6120 18360.00 DRXLR 2.00 3.50 2.99 10000 2146 6416.54 DVDT .25 1.25 .60 10000 2490 1494.00 E .40 .50 .40 10000 4437 1774.80 ESR - - - - - - EXI 1.25 2.50 2.50 10000 3000 7500.00 FCP 11.50 - 11.50 10000 540 6210.00 GHG .30 .60 .54 10000 1755 947.70 GOBEL .30 1.50 1.00 10000 767 767.00 H 2.10 3.80 2.00 10000 6250 12500.00 HEX 100.00 125.00 100.00 10000 3218 321800.00 HFINN 2.00 10.00 10.00 10000 1005 10050.00 IMMFR .50 .80 .80 10000 501 400.80 JFREE .10 .90 .10 10000 3000 300.00 JPP .50 .50 .50 10000 2410 1205.00 LEF .25 .30 .50 10000 1026 513.00 LEFTY 1.00 4.00 4.00 10000 51 204.00 LIST .30 .50 .50 10000 4000 2000.00 LSOFT .55 .60 .75 10000 3600 2700.00 LURKR - 3.00 - 100000 - - MARCR - - - - - - MLINK - .05 1.00 1000000 2601 2601.00 MORE .75 1.50 1.00 10000 2000 2000.00 MWM .15 1.50 1.50 10000 1260 1890.00 N 20.00 25.00 25.00 10000 98 2450.00 P 20.00 22.00 20.00 1000000 265 5300.00 PETER 1.00 - 1.00 10000000 600 600.00 PRICE - 4.00 2.00 10000000 1410 2820.00 R .49 2.80 .50 10000 5100 2550.00 RJC .20 50.00 1.00 10000 100 100.00 ROMA - - - - - - SGP - - - - - - SHAWN - - - - - - TIM 1.00 - - 10000 - - TRADE 8.00 9.00 - 1000000 - - TRANS - .20 1.00 10000 511 511.00 WILKEN 1.00 10.00 10.00 10000 101 1010.00 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total 425562.24 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 3:50:38 PDT From: jpp@markv.com Subject: META: An apology Brian Hawthorne pointed out to me, in private email, that I had sent Exi, and HEx commands to the list at large on more than one occasion. I offer my most humble apology. I also offer to recompensate any who incurred excesive costs. I will pay in thorns, JPP, MORE, or other reputation stock, or in US dollars. Please contact me by email if you feel you should be recompensated. j' -- O I am Jay Prime Positive jpp@markv.com 1250 bit key fingerprint = B8 95 E0 AF 9A A2 CD A5 89 C9 F0 FE B4 3A 2C 3F 524 bit key fingerprint = 8A 7C B9 F2 D5 46 4D ED 66 23 F1 71 DE FF 51 48 Public keys by `finger jpp@markv.com' or mail to pgp-public-keys@pgp.mit.edu Your feedback is welcome, directly or via symbol JPP on hex@sea.east.sun.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 9:59:20 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: ADMIN: List Software Update For those on the beta list, two things have changed: o 'resend thread' has been implemented. This means you can grab a whole thread at one time instead of manually requesting individual message numbers. 'resend thread' takes the same arguments as 'exclude thread', namely, a substring or regular expression. Resent messages are put into digests for efficiency of mail delivery. Don't match your pattern or substring too general because if you request too many messages at one time (more than 100k at the moment), the software will reject it. Example: ::resend thread wage - sends you all messages from the thread "wage competition" ::resend thread wage|report - sends you all messages from the threads "wage competition" and "nighty market report" See ::help resend (also see the egrep manual, emacs manual, or perl manual on the subject of regular expressions) o The time between updates has been extended to 12 hours. This means filter lists and digests will only go out twice a day. The queue also now lasts 4 days (recently there was a disk shortage on panix, the space on a 1gig drive was down to 3megs, so I can't expand the queue any longer for now) -Ray, BUY LSOFT -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jul 93 18:30:50 PDT From: thamilto@pcocd2.intel.com (Tony Hamilton - FES ERG~) Subject: Homosexual tendencies (was: future problems) Well, Perry, I was _hoping_ to get some good, intelligent discussion on the matter, but you appear to be just as closed-minded to the whole issue as anyone else. It doesn't matter if you absolutely claim a genetic source, or are a god-fearing individual who insists that it is just basically evil, either extreme is just as unproductive when it comes to objectively looking into the matter. First, I gave my observations of those homosexual men I know, and never claimed it to be the "norm". However, you proceeded right into a lecture on how most gay men are "stylish", and base a good number of your other comments on this assumption alone. I didn't intent to argue that most homosexuals are "nerdy", but just as you have been exposed to a number of "stylish" types, most I know are reserved, shy, introverted, "boring" kind of people. Your argument that most are surely stylish and further arguments based on that premise therefore cannot be responded to by me, since that is not how I see it. My whole point of the post I made was to discuss a particular case(s) wherein I have _observed_ that it is _possible_ that environment may have been the factor involved. > > Is it possible for someone to be manipulated down > > that course, and then desire never to return (since I don't believe you > > can, if ever, find a homosexual who wants to be otherwise - although I > > am just making a blind assumption here). > > You are. There are many homosexuals who find their sexual identity to > be an agonizing thing that tortures them. It would be so much easier > just to be straight and not have to deal with all the trouble you get > for it. Healthy gays get over this, but some, especially ones with > profound religious beliefs, never get over it. Again, I find it difficult to respond to any of your conclusions, since your premises are so unfounded. You have already taken the typical stance that a significantly feminine male must either be gay or just does not acknowledge it. I know you won't agree with that statement, but if you _re-examine_ my original post, I never once expressed or implied any inkling towards homosexuality or being tortured by my sexual identity. > > Well, the point is, had I been a weak-minded individual, I can almost > > believe that enviornmental influences might have caused my own sexual > > orientation reversal. > > Really? Honestly? Can you say that envisioning having sex with a man > is equally appealing to as having sex with a woman? There ARE Again, what are you reading in what I wrote? Of course I couldn't imagine such a thing, but no-one who is brainwashed into believing something would have originally done so sans exernal influence. What I am proposing is that the folks I speak may have been bludgeoned into believing that their stereotypically feminine ways were symptoms of yet-undiscovered homosexuality, and that once encouraged to explore that theory, _learned_ that lifestyle. More exactly, I am asking for discussion on this matter, since I wouldn't absolutely claim this, but it just seems plausible. Why would sexual orientation (again, unless of course it truly _is_, irrefutably a gene thing) be unlike any other concept that can be instilled in one's subconscious through environmental influences? People will little free will seem to be able to "learn" to believe anything, from political orientation down to self-image (the man who believes he is god...). Perry, you then go on to talk about _what_ "feminine" means. Well, I apologize for not _explicitly_ stating this (I thought it was implied, but if you misread it, it must not have been), but I was implying "sterotypically feminine". And yes, some of the very things you speak of. Whether its talking a certain way, being of diminutive muscularity (I don't know if I said that right, but it sounded good ;-), taking on certain roles, doing certain things, or whatever, its no so important as what is _perceived_ as being feminine, and typically, especially in youth, such attributes are often seen as indicating homosexuality in males. I'm not talking logic, I'm talking about the way it is. I am such a "feminine" male. Sure, I exhibit a number of typically-masculine traits, but I am extremely more feminine than what I observe to be "average". And, I will say again, I have never in my life had any homosexual urges. My sexual orientation is extremely heterosexual. But yet, I have (or do in some cases): 1. Worn women's clothing. Whether its the desire to be "comfortable" (I find many fabrics used in womens clothing are far more pleasant) or a desire to be closer to my wife, who knows - who cares. Does that make me homosexual? Well, if I were fantasizing about homosexual behavior while doing so, probably, but I never have (and I haven't done this in a long while, except when things get a little wierd during sex ... ;-) 2. Fantasazied about being a woman! At first, this looks bad for my argument, but hear me out. I am extremely infatuated with the female body, and wish men had equivalent features to be proud of. But more importantly, during such fantasies, I do not fantasize about having sex with men, but instead with women (which would be homosexual if I actually were a woman). So while I may have had transexual fantasies, there were not truly homosexual, since the concept of having sex with a male is thoroughly disguisting to me. Indeed, if I were of the same pyschological orientation as a female, I would certainly be a lesbian. 3. Acted stereotypically feminine in many ways. The point to all this is that, without qualification, these things would certainly make me _seem_ homosexual. It's not unlike the recent "realization" that males can exhibit what was previously thought to be feminine charactersitics, and still be "macho". Things like crying, taking care of the kids, doing housework, and so forth. My argument is that, at least in my case, one can be "extremely" feminine and still be perfectly, and _naturally_ heterosexual, therefore proposing that such things as behavior or even thoughts (all but homosexual thoughts, that is) are completely separate from sexual orientation. That being said, I again return to my friends who are, in many ways, like my self, and yet are homosexual. What I am really asking is, is homosexuality physical or mental (the usual question), but if it is physical (or at least characterized by the act or desire to engage in relations with those of the same sex), then _can_ there be people who _live_ as homosexuals, but are physically and naturally heterosexual? Now, to all this, Perry can only say that I myself am actually a homosexual who just doesn't know it, which of course would blow my whole theory since I can't possibly be objective about it, since my primary data point, me, is incorrect. I can accept that others may choose to conclude this, but as an objectivist, I know that the reality of the situation is exactly what is regardless of what Perry or others think. As a conscious being (differentiating myself here from those mindless sheep who can't think for themselves), I know and understand my own desires, thank you. So, Perry, either let others respond with some intelligent thoughts on the matter, or respond yourself without throwing non-sequitur comments in as some sort of justification for your viewpoint. (yes, during this last part, I did get a little angry. It seems that once every 6 months or so, when I get a chance to post for a little while, Perry is the first to chime in and disagree with whatever it is I said without appearing to give consideration to what it is I really said. My apologies for getting defensive, if I have, but its uncanny how that always happens.) -- Tony Hamilton | -Intel Corporation | voice: 916-356-3070 --Folsom Engineering Services | mailstop: FM2-55 ---Engineering Resource Group | email: thamilto@pcocd2.intel.com ----Software Technician | ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 09:13:15 CDT From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder) Subject: 133 years old It is not unusual for someone to claim a greater age than they really are to avoid military service or receive a government pension. In the case of this man, if he added 20 years to his real age, he would actually have been born in 1890, and would thus have been in his 40's and 50's during the 30's and WWII. Claims of extreme age need to be carefully documented, and the Guinness people have taken that care in their book, and I believe it is a more reliable guide than a news report from Syria. Also, for most of us, the extreme age is of little practical relevance. A more useful figure would be the country with the highest age at which 5% of the population survives (I would call this the 95%ile life expectancy), as a guide to what we can expect with a healthy life but no special interventions. I count vitamins and calorie-restricted diets as such interventions, which may give us more years, but of an undetermined amount. Dani Eder ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 10:33:15 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: HEX: Bad trade Could the person who bought shares of LSOFT at p57 contact me? I wish to verify whether or not you intended to buy them at that price. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 11:15:16 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: Wage Competition Hans Moravec says: > > Can this list handle a 100kbyte chapter that discusses this at length? > I think we would likely love such a chapter, but it would perhaps be best to post it to the essay list rather than to the main list. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 11:22:13 EDT From: eisrael@suneast.east.sun.com (Elias Israel - SunSelect Engineering) Subject: NANO: Processing power > Elias Israel: > > > (I say that it "processes the same number of instructions" rather > > than "does the same amount of work" because the former is more > > precise than the latter, > Hal Finney responds: > This is reasonable, but keep in mind that Drexler's nanocomputers attain > their great processing power through massive parallelism. I've gone over Nanosystems and UTF, and I haven't found an explicit statement that nanoCPUs attain their processing power through parallelism (except, of course, in the trivial sense that nanoCPUs could be combined to create large processing engines). Is there another reference with more information on nanocomputing? (Its not surprising that UTF covers this only peripherally. It's really written at the "Popular Science" level. However, I had hoped that Nanosystems would cover the topic a little more fully than it has.) I'm aware of the scalability problem in parallel computing, although I think that in the future, wider availability of parallel computing resources may give us time to rethink problems into more easily parallelizable forms. I doubt very much whether we are already at the limit of parellelization for even a significant fraction of our daily computational requirements. With only a few exceptions, experiments in parallel computation have previously taken a sort of "top-down" approach: add CPUs to an otherwise standard Von Neumann machine and share the task load between them. This offers some additional speed, but the granularity of the parallelism is rather coarse: a single task (such a compilation, a database search, etc.) is still being handled by only one processor at a time and while you can run more of them per unit time, each one of them still only runs about as fast as before (or slightly faster because, with more processors to spread around, preemptive scheduling interrupts each task slightly less often.) By using a more bottom-up approach, i.e. writing programs that really run their different parts in parallel, you can realize real gains in program performance. VLIW and superscalar processors which decode and execute multiple instructions simultaneously and the compilers that reorder machine instructions to take advantage of these processors represent the kind of bottom-up approach I'm referring to. In addition, machines like the TM-5 and its system software are ways of rethinking the problem to apply more of the available processing power in parallel than has previously been possible. A sort of "middle-out" approach, to my mind, is the development of programs using a threads model. Perhaps in the future, most non-trivial programs will be done this way and threads will be just another tool in the programmer's toolbox, similar to recursion. Now, however, it's a little difficult to use and its benefits aren't too aparent due to the relative lack of multi-processor hardware and development tools specifically for multi-threaded programs. None of this refutes Amdahl's Law. However, the extent to which one can determine and exploit the maximum parallelizability of a given problem is not cut-and-dried at this point and probably won't be for quite some time. Therefore, I think that parallel computation stands to give us quite a bit of extra processing power before we hit "the wall." Elias Israel eisrael@east.sun.com HEx: E "What a bargain!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 11:36:32 -0400 From: hhuang@Athena.MIT.EDU Subject: META: Jokes? Forgeries? Re: Rebellion Gene/Bland Parenthood I receive the Extropians digest and received two ``posts'' on the ``GT1 rebellion gene.'' Both of these email sender addresses of the presumed ``senders'' of those posts do not apparently exist: smithw@minitrue.gov.oceania press_releases@blandp.org Now since I am on the digest, I don't get to see the actual machine sender email addresses, so I can't tell if the email address in the ``From:'' is a forgery or not. Having decided on a whim to test this, I sent email to the above two addresses and found them both false. If the said poster(s) are on this list, please desist or put a JOKE: or HUMOR: or FORGERY: prefix in your subject line. Furthermore, if I remember correctly, one of the informal or formal list rule is that *somewhere* in one's post, there must be listed the sender's true, reachable email address. And given that many list members receive the digest form, that means that the true email address must either be in the ``From:'' heading or in the body of the post somewhere. If this has been taken care of, then I apologize for sending a redundant message. If the senders are not on the list, then this is a fault of the new list software in not being able to detect forgeries. -Han Y. Huang hhuang@athena.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 93 11:54:09 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: META: Jokes? Forgeries? Re: Rebellion Gene/Bland Parenthood Well, whoever did the joke posts posted from synopsys.com, as you can see from the Message-Id's. The from line was changed to >From press_releases@blandp.org which means the sender had priveleged sendmail use (or atleast the ability to edit aliases) I noticed you are on the beta list, you can get the full message by using the resend command. There are only two users on the list who have synopsys accounts. You can figure out who did it if you rub two brain cells together. (the probability that a non-synopsys user forged it is small. synopsys has a very secure mail system.) -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jul 1993 12:11:13 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: Homosexual tendencies (was: future problems) Tony Hamilton - FES ERG~ says: > Well, Perry, I was _hoping_ to get some good, intelligent discussion on > the matter, but you appear to be just as closed-minded to the whole issue > as anyone else. It doesn't matter if you absolutely claim a genetic > source, or are a god-fearing individual who insists that it is just basically > evil, either extreme is just as unproductive when it comes to objectively > looking into the matter. I've reread my message, and believe it to be objective. Your thesis is that somehow people become gay from peer pressure or the like. From what I can tell, you have no evidence for your position. I stated a number of objective facts, such as the fact that many, if not most, gay men fail to fit the stereotype you listed. > First, I gave my observations of those homosexual men I know, and never > claimed it to be the "norm". However, you proceeded right into a lecture > on how most gay men are "stylish", No, I noted that that was a common stereotype. What I *DID* say was that many of them in fact are highly attractive to women, and thus your thesis, that unattractiveness and peer pressure somehow make people turn gay, wouldn't seem to be an adequite explanation in many cases, and in fact (for other reasons) doesn't seem to be an adequite explanation in most cases. > I didn't intent to argue that most > homosexuals are "nerdy", but just as you have been exposed to a number > of "stylish" types, most I know are reserved, shy, introverted, "boring" > kind of people. You completely misread me. I did not argue that MOST gay men are the smoothly muscled slick dressers that most New Yorkers stereotype them as -- I in fact know several gay men who are "nerdy". On the other hand, I see no special tendancy of gay men to be nerdy, and in fact many are not, and some are extremely non-nerdy (the fashion industry is largely dominated by gay men), so the notion that nerdy men are somehow pressured into homosexuality and that this is why people become homosexual seems very inaccurate. > > > Is it possible for someone to be manipulated down > > > that course, and then desire never to return (since I don't believe you > > > can, if ever, find a homosexual who wants to be otherwise - although I > > > am just making a blind assumption here). > > > > You are. There are many homosexuals who find their sexual identity to > > be an agonizing thing that tortures them. It would be so much easier > > just to be straight and not have to deal with all the trouble you get > > for it. Healthy gays get over this, but some, especially ones with > > profound religious beliefs, never get over it. > > Again, I find it difficult to respond to any of your conclusions, since > your premises are so unfounded. You have already taken the typical stance > that a significantly feminine male must either be gay or just does not > acknowledge it. Pardon, but you are so completely wrong here that words fail me. I said NOTHING about being feminine -- I indeed repeatedly have stated that many gay men have no feminine attributes at all. Furthermore, I stated, explicitly, later on in my article, that femininity in men is a largely artificial concept with no real correlation at all to sexuality. How you could so completely misinterpret my words, when they were so explicit, is beyond me. Didn't you read a word I said? > > > Well, the point is, had I been a weak-minded individual, I can almost > > > believe that enviornmental influences might have caused my own sexual > > > orientation reversal. > > > > Really? Honestly? Can you say that envisioning having sex with a man > > is equally appealing to as having sex with a woman? There ARE > > Again, what are you reading in what I wrote? What I am reading is someone who somehow believes you can become gay via "peer pressure" and who has no evidence for it. > Of course I couldn't imagine > such a thing, but no-one who is brainwashed into believing something would > have originally done so sans exernal influence. You are making a very very astonishing claim -- that somehow peer pressure brainwashes people into becoming gay. You are making this claim without evidence and in the presense of much evidence of the inaccuracy of your claims. I'm certain that given sufficient brainwashing you could temporarily get a person to behave in a manner contrary to their normal sexual identity, at least for a brief period. However, I think that the question here is why normal individuals with normal childhoods one day realize that they are interested in members of the same sex. These people have NOT been placed in dark rooms and beaten for weeks and given psychotropic drugs. Neither have they been horribly abused, or pressured -- if anything they have experienced large amounts of pressure against their sexual orientation, not towards it. Your thesis has no way to explain these individuals, who make up the bulk of the homosexual community. > More exactly, I am asking for discussion on this matter, > since I wouldn't absolutely claim this, but it just seems plausible. No, you aren't asking for discussion. You are persisting in making a fairly wild claim that doesn't seem to have any basis in fact, and you are disappointed in me for pointing out that it doesn't seem to be consistant with reality. > (yes, during this last part, I did get a little angry. It seems that once > every 6 months or so, when I get a chance to post for a little while, Perry > is the first to chime in and disagree with whatever it is I said without > appearing to give consideration to what it is I really said. I gave consideration to what you said. It doesn't seem correct, thats all. Perry ------------------------------ End of V93 #203 **************** &