60 Message 60: From exi@panix.com Wed Jul 21 23:44:55 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA21500; Wed, 21 Jul 93 23:44:53 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from panix.com by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA19812; Wed, 21 Jul 93 23:44:36 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by panix.com id AA08525 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for more@usc.edu); Thu, 22 Jul 1993 02:42:29 -0400 Date: Thu, 22 Jul 1993 02:42:29 -0400 Message-Id: <199307220642.AA08525@panix.com> To: Exi@panix.com From: Exi@panix.com Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: July 22, 373 P.N.O. [06:42:22 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: R Extropians Digest Thu, 22 Jul 93 Volume 93 : Issue 202 Today's Topics: [6 msgs] Is there a Nanotech mailing list? [1 msgs] META: test [2 msgs] Meta: Who is on the new software? [1 msgs] Test msg [1 msgs] Wage Competition [1 msgs] future problems [3 msgs] less is better than more [1 msgs] mail delivery error [1 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 51780 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 1:05:54 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Test msg test ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 1:05:54 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Test msg test ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 1:05:54 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Test msg test ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 1:05:54 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Test msg test ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jul 93 1:05:54 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: META: test test ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 20:14:04 EDT From: "stuff available list" available on request--just ask for it! Subject: future problems A local newspaper recently reported that a "gene complex for homosexuality has been found at the tip of the X chromosome", for something like that, and that a prenatal test may be possible. So it is possible that this may present a sort of prob- lem in the future. Namely, suppose a person or couple is anti-abortion, and also anti-homosexual... So do they abort and save the world from yet another homosexual, or not abort and afflict the world with said homosexual? Or do they allow the suspect person to grow up, wait for the behavior to appear, then kill the emerging deviant part? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 20:16:47 EDT From: Network Mailer Subject: mail delivery error Batch SMTP transaction log follows: 220 MITVMA.MIT.EDU Columbia MAILER R2.10 ptf000 BSMTP service ready. 050 HELO MITVMA 250 MITVMA.MIT.EDU Hello MITVMA 050 MAIL FROM:<@mitvma.mit.edu:exi@panix.com> 250 <@mitvma.mit.edu:exi@panix.com>... sender OK. 050 RCPT TO: 250 ... recipient OK. 050 RCPT TO: 250 ... recipient OK. 050 RCPT TO: 250 ... recipient OK. 050 DATA 354 Start mail input. End with . 554-Mail not delivered to some or all recipients: 554-'iubvm.bi...' is too long to be a VM userid. 554-'maristb....' is too long to be a VM userid. 554 'nyuccvm....' is too long to be a VM userid. 050 QUIT 221 MITVMA.MIT.EDU Columbia MAILER BSMTP service done. Original message follows: Received: from MITVMA by MITVMA.MIT.EDU (Mailer R2.10 ptf000) with BSMTP id 7279; Wed, 21 Jul 93 20:16:46 EDT Received: from panix.com by mitvma.mit.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with TCP; Wed, 21 Jul 93 20:16:39 EDT Received: by panix.com id AA21125 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4); Wed, 21 Jul 1993 20:15:00 -0400 Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 20:15:00 -0400 Message-Id: <199307220015.AA21125@panix.com> To: Exi@panix.com From: Exi@panix.com Subject: Extropians Digest X-Extropian-Date: July 22, 373 P.N.O. [00:14:55 UTC] Reply-To: extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Extropians Digest Thu, 22 Jul 93 Volume 93 : Issue 202 Today's Topics: [10 msgs] BLABLA:Fuller and Housing [1 msgs] Dinner on Aug 5th [2 msgs] Eating [2 msgs] HUMOUR? Extropians in *the buff* [3 msgs] Nightly Market Report [1 msgs] Optimizing utility in the free market [1 msgs] Party on Thurs Aug 5th [1 msgs] Third Millenium group? [1 msgs] Wage Competition [5 msgs] personal cancer experiences... [1 msgs] Administrivia: No admin msg. Approximate Size: 52051 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 19:35:12 PDT From: martino@gomez.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (Martin R. Olah) Subject: BLABLA:Fuller and Housing The main reason we didn't see Dymaxion Houses stamped out by the thousands was Buckminster Fuller himself. Like other great inventors such as Nikola Tesla and Henry Ford he found compromise to be very distasteful(understandably). They also shared an inability to stop tinkering and get on with production, which caused many huge deals to fall through. In the case of Fuller's mass produced housing, his main obstacle was his theory of Idea Gestation. He felt that it would take 25 years for a new idea in housing construction to be ready for the world. In 1946 he had thousands of orders and millions of dollars backing his design, but he refused to begin production until 1952. It didn't take long for investors to grow impatient and finally the enterprise collapsed, leaving Fuller to pursue other interests. -O Martin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 22:52:13 EST From: wit@MIT.EDU (paul whitmore) Subject: Party on Thurs Aug 5th > Semi-related factoid: > > The Papa Razzi location probably best suited to a gathering coming from > MacWorld would be the one at the Cambridge Galeria Mall, which is right > off the green line at the "Lechmere" stop in Cambridge. > > Elias Israel > eisrael@east.sun.com nothing too trivial to mention: although extropians may live forever, and then, won't need to worry too much about wasting near-zero time in a mall eating at a franchise, it is worth trying to capture as much experience as cannot easily be replicated elsewhere. since probably half of the people eating will be from beyond boston, as a principle for selection, i recommend trying something that cannot be had elsewhere. that does not force the selection: there is the north end, boston's china town sq, indian food in central sq mexican in harvard square, sushi/udon noodles in little japan in porter sq -----\ all that end in sq are accessble by red line [[[also, the green line is not an easy line other choices? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 00:00:10 EDT From: The Hawthorne Exchange Subject: Nightly Market Report The Hawthorne Exchange - HEx Nightly Market Report For more information on HEx, send email to HEx@sea.east.sun.com with the Subject info. --------------------------------------------------------------- News Summary as of: Tue Jul 20 23:59:07 EDT 1993 New command: MULTI If you specify MULTI in your subject line, HEx will parse each line of the body of your message as a separate command. The COMMENT, REGISTER and MULTI commands are not valid in multi-mode. For example, to get the prospectus, trading book and current quote for a reputation: Subject: MULTI prospectus R book R quote R Newly Registered Reputations: LSOFT Extropians List Software New Share Issues: Symbol Shares Issued LSOFT 10000 EXI 10000 H 10000 LIST 10000 Share Splits: (None) --------------------------------------------------------------- Market Summary as of: Wed Jul 21 00:00:03 EDT 1993 Total Shares Symbol Bid Ask Last Issued Outstanding Market Value ACS .50 .70 8.00 10000 126 1008.00 WILKEN 9.00 10.00 10.00 10000 101 1010.00 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Total 417105.72 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 00:03:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Moore Subject: Third Millenium group? (-: cmoore@cap.gwu.edu :-) On Mon, 19 Jul 1993, Dave Krieger wrote: > At 4:34 PM 7/18/93 -0400, Carol Moore wrote: > >I was a bit confused about Dave's comment's below... > > > >My confusion is: since libertarians and a-capitalists support abolition > >of social security and know that there are many well-off older people > >also receiving social security, I'm surprised that you are assuming > >their first targets are POOR old people. > > I objected, first of all, to the tone of these people in, effectively, > declaring intergenerational warfare (essentially saying, "It's up to OUR > generation to make the decisions, and THEIR generation to make the > sacrifices necessary to clean up this mess")... when it's the intermediate > generation that deserves most of the responsibility for creating the status > quo. CM replies: Since the over 50 generation votes in greater numbers than the under 50, and holds disprortionate number of positions of real power, I think it is fair to "blame" the situation more on those born before 1945 than those after. The group should be including more disaffected people in their 30s-early40s. Secondly, I object to the unfairness of changing the rules on the > over-60 generation at the end of the game. As originally established, > SocSec was supposed to be simple insurance and (aside from being > non-voluntary) a contract relation... you put in your premiums while young > and healthy, and, if you live to be old and feeble, you take back out > again. I made no assumption that the elders who are going to get screwed > will be poor, and shame on you for suggesting that should matter; I don't > subscribe to "To each according to his need". I'm p.o.'ed exactly because > the sacrifices are going to be spread around disproportionately, with the > old folks who saved for their own retirement (and probably contributed more > to the plan in premiums, back when those dollars were worth something) > getting the shaft. Carol replies: Until 5 years ago even the wealthiest people got back EVERYTHING they paid in with in 3 years. This is up to around 6 -8 years now. Throw in another year of interest, and after that it's pure welfare. You obviously have not read much on the libertarian/ anarchist capitalist end of the extropian belief system. END OF CAROL'S COMMENTS....> > >Also, the ship of state IS sinking deficit-debt wise. Which is > >both inevitable and welcome (except to the extent we are all impoverished > >by it.) > > The "sinking ship" rhetoric of Third Millenium referred to the environment > being on the verge of collapse, which is patently absurd. > > >Why I assume that you are criticizing the statist and no-growth > >environmentalist views they seem to have, that is not clear. > > I fail to discern the meaning of this sentence; it appears to have some > words left out. I do object to their statism and apocalyptic > environmentalism. While we're on the subject, I'd like to heartily > recommend a great book entitled "Eco-Scam: The False Prophets of > Environmental Apocalypse" by Ronald Bailey (St. Martin's Press). This book > convinced me that I was wrong and Max More is right about the environment: > the "dangers" have been absurdly magnified by the usual suspects (Rifkin, > Ehrlich, Commoner, et al). Carl Sagan takes a beating as well for his > obsession with "nuclear winter" and the smoke from the Gulf War (Bailey > reports that other atmospheric scientists have now taken to saying, "Where > there's smoke, there's Sagan.") > dV/dt > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 1993 23:47:44 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: HUMOUR? Extropians in *the buff* -=>Well I will show my XXX Morphs but my price is similar pix's in -=>return. Hmm must they be just naughty morphs, or naughty morphs OF US? I don't have any nekkid pix of me, so that could be a problem. Not sure you'd want a picture of my dick turning into a tiger anyway. (then again that might be interesting...) -- Stanton McCandlish * Space Migration * Networking * ChaOrder * NO GOV'T. * anton@hydra.unm.edu * Intelligence Increase * Nano * Crypto * NO RELIGION * FidoNet: 1:301/2 * Life Extension * Ethics * VR * Now! * NO MORE LIES! * Noise in the Void BBS * +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400, v32bis, N-8-1) * ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 23:25:24 PDT From: hfinney@shell.portal.com Subject: Wage Competition Nick asks, regarding the possibility that others will produce what you do for less than would be a "living wage" (my term) for you: > What is a real-world example of this? The only examples I can > think of are (a) the formerly high-wage worker > has to reevaluate what he considers a "necessity" for life -- > usually things his parents, or his lower-wage competitors, > consider[ed] luxuries, or (b) situations where the high-wage > worker has foolishly saddled himself with long-range debt > without wage or unemployment insurance. I'm not sure there are actually many cases where automation has literally taken people who could make a living before and outdated them so thoroughly that they absolutely can't earn enough to live on. I suppose there might be some cases where some mentally defective person had such poor skills that they could do almost no useful work, but that when machinery did not exist they were able to eke out a living helping around the farm or something. Then, once the cotton gin was invented they lost the only thing they could do and they starved. Whether this has ever happened or not, though, my real point was that eventually automated machines may be able to take over virtually all manual labor. As Nick pointed out, much mental labor may be doable by machines as well. Today, if someone loses his job designing missiles he can always wash dishes or dig ditches. But if the dishwashing jobs are also the province of robots then what do people do? Granted, dishwashing and ditch-digging robots are not on the horizon, but presumably they will exist eventually. Hal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 23:25:26 PDT From: hfinney@shell.portal.com Subject: Wage Competition Perry writes: > Of course, this is only a problem if relative productivity changes a > lot, and it generally doesn't. With standard 19th century farming > implements and a plot of land I can still live a pretty good 19th > century farmer's lifestyle, including the few goods he had to buy. This may be true of farmers, because they were pretty self-sufficient. But what if you were a 19th century buggy-whip manufacturer? Or blacksmith? A 19th-century tanner? A by-hand pin manufacturer? A canvas sailmaker? I'd bet that most 19th-century professionals would have a very hard time maintaining their 19th-century lifestyles today, since there is no call for their services. And I do think that relative productivity does change a lot. Automation becomes available in different industries at different times. (It's really not even clear how you measure relative productivity when the industries themselves appear and die.) I don't have statistics handy on the ratio of the price of cotton to the price of copper, but my guess is that it has fluctuated quite a bit over the last 100 years. Both prices have gone down, no doubt, but there is no reason to expect that they would have gone down by anywhere close to the same degree, nor that their biggest drops would have occured at the same time. Hal hfinney@shell.portal.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jul 93 23:25:23 PDT From: hfinney@shell.portal.com Subject: personal cancer experiences... I am very sorry to hear that Zak is facing this problem. My father died last month of lung cancer, and it is a serious disease to be faced with. It sounds like Zak's cancer is much more treatable, though, which is very good to hear. My father opted for an aggressive and somewhat experimental course of treatment when he was diagnosed five years ago at the age of 67. They did multiple courses of chemotherapy, followed by surgery to remove the now-shrunken cancerous tissue, with further radiation therapy to attack other parts of the body where the cancer could theoretically have spread. This was part of a research study to see whether this three-pronged attack would lead to better survival rates than conventional treatment, which might just use one or two of these approaches. It appeared to work, until two months ago, when the cancer was discovered to have returned. Another course of chemotherapy was planned, but my father became too sick to tolerate the treatment, and died a few days later. The really bad thing, though, was that although the treatment undoubtedly extended his life by several years, it almost killed him. At the beginning my father was reasonably robust, healthy, and active. Two years later, after the chemo, radiation and surgery, if you had met him you would have assumed that he was a man in his 90's. He was terribly weak and could hardly walk, he could eat only liquids and soft foods, and he was mentally much slower as well. It was painful to see how much the treatments had cost him. I was actually surprised that he was determined to go through another course of chemo when the cancer came back after what it had done to him before. Having said this, I don't mean to say that Zak should avoid chemotherapy. My father was an old man, and Zak is young and healthy, I gather. Still, the cost in terms of quality of life can't be ignored. Having seen what my father went through, if I were in Zak's position I would probably wait to see if the cancer does return before going through the chemo. I admire Zak's courage and upbeat attitude in facing this challenge. Losing my father has caused me to think more about my own possible mortality. We can all hope for a long life, perhaps even an infinitely extended one if some of our speculations and plans prove out. But there are no guarantees in this world. Zak has the odds well in his favor, and I know we all hope for the best for him. Hal Finney hfinney@shell.portal.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 0:00:12 PDT From: "markv.com MMDF Mail System" Subject: Waiting mail (msg.aa26640) After 6 days (123 hours), your message has not yet been fully delivered. Attempts to deliver the message will continue for 9 more days. No further action is required by you. Delivery attempts are still pending for the following address(es): jpp Problems usually are due to service interruptions at the receiving machine. Less often, they are caused by the communication system. Your message begins as follows: Received: from panix.com by hermix.markv.com id aa26640; 15 Jul 93 20:32 PDT Received: by panix.com id AA12957 (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for jpp@markv.com); Thu, 15 Jul 1993 23:32:08 -0400 To: Exi@panix.com Message-Id: <9307152134.AA13666@ude.tim.ia.ung.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Original-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu From: capntaz@dudemar.b24a.ingr.com (Heath G. Goebel) X-Original-Message-Id: <199307152138.AA07412@dudemar.b24a.ingr.com> Subject: HEx: New Exchange Regulations Date: Thu, 15 Jul 93 16:38:20 CDT X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on July 16, 373 P.N.O. [03:32:07 UTC] X-Message-Number: #93-7-553 Reply-To: Exi@panix.com Errors-To: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu X-Resent-Message: Processed > From: The Hawthorne Exchange > Subject: HEx: New Exchange Regulations ... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 00:22:08 -0700 From: davisd@nimitz.ee.washington.edu Subject: Optimizing utility in the free market From: "Perry E. Metzger" But you said that "control of your neighbor" somehow impacted Pareto optimality. Did not. I merely asked you what Pareto optimality had to do with choosing a free market as the system to provide optimal utility. Well, which is it -- "nothing" or somehow a demonstration that free markets aren't optimal. It is a demonstration that claims of optimal utility by any system are bogus if they don't take power into account. You have often used the example of strangling a kitten every morning if it would give you immortality. You do not set up a market with kittens to kill them because you have the power to kill them without trade. If the requirement was a human life every morning, and you had the power to pull it off, I presume that you would not let your victim's protest stop you. > To bludgeon it to death further, I was merely reiterating what I > consider to be the obvious; that your support for freedom dwindles > quickly when you have the power to take what you want instead of > paying for it, so that "proofs" claiming optimal utility which do not > take power into account are bogus. But you never truly have the power to take what you want -- not in the real world. Well, a lot of taking seems to be going on nevertheless. Buy Buy -- Dan Davis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 00:36:57 -0700 (PDT) From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) Subject: Wage Competition Hal Finney: > Whether this has ever happened or not, though, my real point was that > eventually automated machines may be able to take over virtually all > manual labor. As Nick pointed out, much mental labor may be doable > by machines as well. I further argued that the mental jobs are being taken over faster than the manual jobs. Either way, there remain a large number of jobs that rely heavily on the "human touch": clerks, waitresses, receptionists, masseurs, erotic dancers, prostitutes, doctors, nurses, hairdressers, salesmen, lawyers, therapists, babysitters, entertainers, athletes, etc. Not coincidentally, these jobs are a rapidly growing segment of the labor force. When machines have taken everything else over, we will still pay to be touched, listened to, entertained, etc. by "real humans". People will also buy and sell stock in the huge automated companies that do all the non-personal service and manufacturing chores, and this may eclipse the wage as the primary source of income for most people, until the day the AIs or uploaders decide to buy it up and use the capital for their own purposes. Growing numbers of people may come to rely on statist welfare or private charity, and may become the ancestors of those creatures the posthumans will keep as pets. Nick Szabo szabo@techbook.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 01:15:50 -0700 (PDT) From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) Subject: Wage Competition Hal Finney: > But what if you were a 19th century buggy-whip manufacturer? Or blacksmith? > A 19th-century tanner? A by-hand pin manufacturer? A canvas sailmaker? Believe it or not all these professions, or related professions using most of the same skills, still exist 100 years later, albeit in greatly diminished numbers. For example, there are still buggy whip makers in Conneticut. Assuming some foresight (eg a buggy whip futures market in 1900 predicting that many of them would be out of business by 1920) there is plenty of time to retrain, and/or save up money from the last years of the business and steer the next generation into more lucrative areas. Since mental work is changing so rapidly, many of us can expect several such retraining episodes even in our own unaugmented careers. On the other hand I fully expect there to be billions of of "human touch" jobs, little changed from today's skills, 100 years from now. There may also be manual labor jobs -- some manual labor automation may be much harder than the AI problem. The big Thornes will likely go to owners of the vastly wealthy, automated manufacturing and non-touch service industries, or government politicos if we slide towards socialism. By this time they may be owners in name only, all the real work being done by their hypersavant software agents. Nick Szabo szabo@techbook.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 07:47:45 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: HUMOUR? Extropians in *the buff* a conscious being, Stanton McCandlish wrote: > Hmm must they be just naughty morphs, or naughty morphs OF US? I don't > have any nekkid pix of me, so that could be a problem. Not sure you'd > want a picture of my dick turning into a tiger anyway. (then again that > might be interesting...) I took this appropriately faced guy at work and turned him into my dick. It is fun to watch his neck strech and his chin into the "crown." Kinda cool. /hawk -- Harry S. Hawk habs@panix.com Electronic Communications Officer, Extropy Institute Inc. List Administrator of the Extropy Institute Mailing List Private Communication for the Extropian Community since 1991 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 08:56:44 EDT From: lubkin@apollo.hp.com Subject: Dinner on Aug 5th It looks like a number of you are "coming" to dinner. I expect to be there as well. Any place that has vegetarian, dairy, or seafood is ok. Chinese and Mexican are especial favorites. And to echo Harry, non-smoking. A true non-smoking section, not one where the smoke drifts over from the next table. -- David Lubkin. ========================= lubkin@apollo.hp.com ========================= ------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 08:56:03 -0500 From: extr@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: HUMOUR? Extropians in *the buff* In <199307211147.AA28478@panix.com>, Harry Shapiro writes: |> a conscious being, Stanton McCandlish wrote: |> > Hmm must they be just naughty morphs, or naughty morphs OF US? I don't |> > have any nekkid pix of me, so that could be a problem. Not sure you'd |> > want a picture of my dick turning into a tiger anyway. (then again that |> > might be interesting...) |> |> I took this appropriately faced guy at work and turned him into |> my dick. It is fun to watch his neck strech and his chin into |> the "crown." Kinda cool. |> |> /hawk So, what kind of hardware does one need to view this, um, art? -- F_cP ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 09:15:26 CDT From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder) Subject: Wage Competition Hal Finney would lose his bet based on the examples he gave. He listed buggy whip, blacksmith, tanner, pins, and sails as examples. I know people who make 20th century livings as blacksmith, tanner, and canvas worker (tents, not sails). And they use pre-20th century techniques. Steve Robinson makes and sells knives and swords using a coal fired forge with a hand crank blower. He sells to historical re-creationists and knife collectors. In my historical hobby I have met a tanner that makes his living producing leather of various kinds. Some of his production is vegetable-tanned (the traditional method). Another person I know makes tents of canvas and wood. I've made my own tents, and I could make a living at it even without power tools, if all I wanted was a moderate lifestyle. I can give a couple of more examples. Alan Baudry makes his living making and selling medieval armor. Kim Caulfield and her sister raise sheep and sell the meat, sheepskins, and wool garments made from the sheep. They both use traditional methods and tools. These are all people who I know or have met personally, and I am just one person. What has happened is that professions that catered to necessities have become professions that cater to hobbyists and collectors mostly, but there is still a market for their work. Dani Eder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 10:28:15 -0400 From: merritt@macro.bu.edu (Sean Merritt) Subject: Dinner on Aug 5th From: Harry Shapiro > It looks like a number of you are "coming" to dinner. > > I would like to have it near the Copley so we can get back quickly > for the party. I have to have a place with a non smoking section. > > Otherwise I am rather open minded. Their used to be a great Cajun rest. > called Tim's Tavern in that area, but I think they have moved. > > Anyway are there any good Vegan type places? Tim's is no longer Cajun. The chef had started his own restaurant but that went under. Tim's is now a cheap burger and ribs type of place and hasn't a non-smoking section. Near Copely: 1) Mexican: Casa Romero 30 Glouster St. it's expensive but authentic. (not family style Mexican more like the food in the movie Like_Water_For_Chocolate i.e. haute cuisine) 2) Sushi: Miyako 279 Newbury, Gyuhama 827 Boylston(*) * the better of the two If people have their heart set on Goemon there is one on Mass. Ave. near the Symphony. 3) Seafood: Atlantic Fish Co. (across from the Pru), Skipjacks(across from the Hancock). 4) Chinese: there are some but it's better to go to chinatown 5) Thai: There are no less than 5 all about the same. 6) Indian: the best bet for anything close to vegan, there is a newer place on Newbury(haven't tried it yet). 7) Italian: Both Spasso and Ciao Bella are preferable to Papa Razzi as I noted before. 8) Nice but pricey: St Botolphs'(on St. Botolph St. near Christian Science Center), Cafe Budapest(Hungarian*) 90 Exeter St(next to the public library), Hamersley's Bistro 578 Tremont, Du Barry(French) 159 Newbury St. * possibly the closest to the party -sjm -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sean J. Merritt | Dept of Physics Boston University| "You leave me dry." merritt@macro.bu.edu | P.J. Harvey ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 10:25:49 -0500 (EST) From: LEVY%LENNY@Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu Subject: Eating I cast my vote for any non-fast-food place that has vegetarian options. Regrettably, I will not be able to attend a Monday-night event, but I will be up Thursday 8/5. -- Simon! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 10:41:57 EDT From: lubkin@apollo.hp.com Subject: Eating I cast my vote for any non-fast-food place that has vegetarian options. Regrettably, I will not be able to attend a Monday-night event, but I will be up Thursday 8/5. Thursday 8/5 is ok. I'm not sure which Monday Perry wanted. I'm nominally available on M 8/9, but not M 8/2. -- David. ------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 3:52:06 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: ADMIN: New Commands See help on digest, nosend, and reset. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 3:52:06 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: ADMIN: New Commands See help on digest, nosend, and reset. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 3:52:06 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: ADMIN: New Commands See help on digest, nosend, and reset. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 3:52:06 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: ADMIN: New Commands See help on digest, nosend, and reset. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 3:52:06 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: ADMIN: New Commands See help on digest, nosend, and reset. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 3:52:06 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: ADMIN: New Commands See help on digest, nosend, and reset. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 3:52:06 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: ADMIN: New Commands See help on digest, nosend, and reset. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 3:52:06 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: ADMIN: New Commands See help on digest, nosend, and reset. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jul 93 3:52:06 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: ADMIN: New Commands See help on digest, nosend, and reset. -Ray -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #202 ********************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 19:38:25 -0400 From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: META: test test ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 19:22:52 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: Is there a Nanotech mailing list? ignore, this is a test -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 17:50:44 PDT From: Robin Hanson Subject: Wage Competition Nick Szabo writes: >People will also buy and sell stock in the huge automated companies >that do all the non-personal service and manufacturing chores, and >this may eclipse the wage as the primary source of income for most >people, until the day the AIs or uploaders decide to buy it up and use >the capital for their own purposes. Growing numbers of people may >come to rely on statist welfare or private charity, and may become the >ancestors of those creatures the posthumans will keep as pets. ... >By this time they may be owners in name only, all the real >work being done by their hypersavant software agents. These comments raise several issues. First, being a pet is a job with a wage, so those who can be pets are not post-wage. Second, if others "buy up" your factories, they must pay you enough for you to buy other factories. Their added wage wealth may allow them to produce more factories faster than you, but you needn't give up "your" factories. Third, even now most owners are owners in "name only", according to your criteria. Forth, the fact that many people may reach the point where most of their wealth is in forms other than their ability to earn wages does not at all mean they will require charity. If they don't spend their assets or reproduce too quickly, and if they diversify sufficiently, they may be able to afford lifestyles quite rich by our standards. Fifth, AIs may well be almost all owned by people, so that all the wealth they produce can be spent by those people. Such rich owners need not be eclipsed, even if they earn very little of the total wages. Fnerd claimed he believed otherwise about AIs, but unfortunately declined to explain himself here. In the long run, the entities who own the future are those self-owned entities whose can resist the temptation to consume their wealth now, and invest for the long-term. Whether their wealth is in the form of capital or wage earning power is largely irrelevant. Robin Hanson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 21:05:43 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: future problems a conscious being, stuff available list" available on request--just ask for it! wrote: > > lem in the future. Namely, suppose a person or > couple is anti-abortion, and also anti-homosexual... > So do they abort and save the world from yet > another homosexual, or not abort and afflict the > world with said homosexual? Or do they allow the Yes I think it pose's an interesting problem for the moral majority. -- Harry S. Hawk habs@panix.com Electronic Communications Officer, Extropy Institute Inc. List Administrator of the Extropy Institute Mailing List Private Communication for the Extropian Community since 1991 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 21:28:47 EDT From: "stuff available list" available on request--just ask for it! Subject: less is better than more Why is it that when A get 25% more, and B gets 75% more, A will prefer that A and B get only 10% more? I think this phenomenon is known as the "Prisoners Dilema". It is explained very nicely in "How Real Is Real?" by Paul Watzlawick. People make this lesser choice in all sorts of situations. Why? Perhaps some sort of "Darwinian Dilema" that leads the lessered individual to fear elimination as a result of having so much less than the competition. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 21:37:02 -0400 From: pcm@cs.brown.edu (Peter C. McCluskey) Subject: future problems rgardner@charon.mit.edu ("stuff available list" available on request--just ask for it!) writes: >So do they abort and save the world from yet >another homosexual, or not abort and afflict the >world with said homosexual? Or do they allow the >suspect person to grow up, wait for the behavior >to appear, then kill the emerging deviant part? Most people who are anti-abortion and anti-homosexual would want to 'cure' the homosexual. If homosexuality is genetic, they would simply classify it as a birth defect. Keep in mind that most homophobes use the term "homosexuality" to refer to behavior, not desires. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Peter McCluskey >> pcm@cs.brown.edu >> Essentia non sunt multiplicanda praeter pcm@macgreg.com (new work address) >> necessitatum. -- William of Ockham ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 19:01:53 PDT From: jpp@markv.com Subject: MULTI report account book jpp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 19:01:53 PDT From: jpp@markv.com Subject: MULTI report account book jpp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 22:05:08 EDT From: Brian.Hawthorne@east.sun.com (Brian Holt Hawthorne - SunSelect Engineering) Subject: ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jul 1993 22:00:10 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: Meta: Who is on the new software? The following addresses/users are on the new list software, FYI. phoenix@ugcs.caltech.edu 75120.731@compuserve.com 0005152975@mcimail.com aboyko@vnet.ibm.com boerlage@cs.ubc.ca inems%nyuccvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu dkrieger@synopsys.com betsys@ra.cs.umb.edu dasher@netcom.com starr@genie.slhs.udel.edu gemsee@leo.unm.edu kl62%maristb.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu cappello%cs@hub.ucsb.edu raybugs@gnu.ai.mit.edu ae736@yfn.ysu.edu jwales%iubvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu hal@alumni.cco.caltech.edu a.mcbride@axion.bt.co.uk pgf@srl03.cacs.usl.edu bob_g@eris.demon.co.uk romana@apple.com pat_farrell@mail.amsinc.com bhawthorne@east.sun.com more@usc.edu blade@mindvox.phantom.com habs@gnu.ai.mit.edu jcostello@pomona.claremont.edu perry@potlatch.hacktic.nl smo@gnu.ai.mit.edu thamilto@pcocd2.intel.com dag@graphics.rent.com marc.ringuette@gs80.sp.cs.cmu.edu jeff_loomis.escp10@xerox.com andreag@csmil.umich.edu caadams@triton.unm.edu sasha@cs.umb.edu 909@delphi.com dave_good@gateway.qm.apple.com aubuchon@pangea.stanford.edu hanson@ptolemy.arc.nasa.gov desilets@sj.ate.slb.com eric.marsh@eng.sun.com mark_muhlestein@novell.com uc482529@mizzou1.missouri.edu lubkin@apollo.hp.com bill@kean.ucs.mun.ca moravec@think.com simon.mcclenahan@mel.dit.csiro.au c576653@mizzou1.missouri.edu michels@uncmvs.oit.unc.edu cmt@engr.latech.edu tribble@netcom.com graps@galileo.arc.nasa.gov hhuang@athena.mit.edu perry@gnu.ai.mit.edu ken.lang@f.gp.cs.cmu.edu dfrissell@attmail.com carlf@media.mit.edu jpp@markv.com whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk bhartung@cwis.unomaha.edu ddfr@midway.uchicago.edu rens@imsi.com 72727.560@compuserve.com mackler@world.std.com autarch@well.sf.ca.us mdiehl@triton.unm.edu zia@world.std.com eric.fogleman@analog.com bangell@cc.utah.edu x91007@pitvax.xx.rmit.edu.au mike@highlite.gotham.com anton@hydra.unm.edu rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu caravaggia@aol.com tsf@cs.cmu.edu ajw@think.com levy%lenny@venus.ycc.yale.edu mary.morris@eng.sun.com eric@synopsys.com jamie@netcom.com habs@panix.com /hawk -- Harry S. Hawk habs@panix.com Electronic Communications Officer, Extropy Institute Inc. List Administrator of the Extropy Institute Mailing List Private Communication for the Extropian Community since 1991 ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 #202 ********************************* &