From extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Thu Jun 17 22:09:58 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA05574; Thu, 17 Jun 93 22:09:56 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA17821; Thu, 17 Jun 93 22:09:52 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu (5.65/4.0) id ; Fri, 18 Jun 93 00:54:09 -0400 Message-Id: <9306180454.AA01246@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: ExI-Daily@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 00:53:38 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <9306180453.AA01239@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Original-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu From: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Extropians Digest V93 #0339 X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on June 18, 373 P.N.O. [04:54:08 UTC] Reply-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: OR Extropians Digest Fri, 18 Jun 93 Volume 93 : Issue 0339 Today's Topics: "SWF seeks organs," or, Bootleg Organ Banks [1 msgs] Beauty engineering [1 msgs] CHAT: Thanks... [1 msgs] EVOLUTION: Aquatic hominids [1 msgs] Jurassic Park [1 msgs] META: extropian babes/veggie slamming [1 msgs] META: new list software effects [2 msgs] META: new listware - question [2 msgs] NANOQUERY: A prob. that is bugging me [1 msgs] PERS: That kid who wanted to go to Berkeley [1 msgs] SATIRE: Extropian Babes in Space [4 msgs] SOC/CHAT: In Houston / TECH: Englebart/AUGMENT [2 msgs] SOC/CHAT: Take a _Velociraptor_ to lunch soon! [1 msgs] SOC/CHAT: Wolf behavior [2 msgs] Seagoing Primates and Undersea Domes [3 msgs] TECH/WAR: Wormhole Wars [2 msgs] Traversable Wormholes: Some Implications [1 msgs] Administrivia: This is the digested version of the Extropian mailing list. Please remember that this list is private; messages must not be forwarded without their author's permission. To send mail to the list/digest, address your posts to: extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu To send add/drop requests for this digest, address your post to: exi-daily-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu To make a formal complaint or an administrative request, address your posts to: extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu If your mail reader is operating correctly, replies to this message will be automatically addressed to the entire list [extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu] - please avoid long quotes! The Extropian mailing list is brought to you by the Extropy Institute, through hardware, generously provided, by the Free Software Foundation - neither is responsible for its content. Forward, Onward, Outward - Harry Shapiro (habs) List Administrator. Approximate Size: 50600 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 16:28:44 PDT From: Robin Hanson Subject: Traversable Wormholes: Some Implications Your paper is indeed becoming polished, and I'm very happy to have helped in any way toward its completion. Great! Find "*" denoting my suggested changes. >*Perhaps* We can't expect an ultimately materials-based economy >(which even cyberspace is) to speed up by this amount. ... >Trade across more than light weeks is *much less* economically >*significant* due to the growth and change in markets during a doubling. >Since the advent of relativity there have been a number of approaches >to travelling faster than light: 1) ... 4) For the purposes of the paper, I'd say there's too much detail on these alterantives - they're just not relevant to the main points of the paper. >We have no familiarity with *substantial* >exotic matter today, but it existed under conditions of extraordinary >pressure in the early universe*, and in very tenuous forms today*. >A traversable wormhole can be thought of as >the negative energy counterpart to a black-hole, and so justifies the >appellation 'white' hole. The term "white hole" really has been taken in GR for other purposes, specifically for the time-reverse of a black hole. Just confusing to use the term this way. >The gravitational field of the hole will impose a size-dependent lower >bound on the Hawking temperature giving a channel capacity*,* that >scales with hole size*,* of 10^52 bits/sec * mass (in kg). >Some exceptions might be unless the object is unusually >information-rich or can't be reduced to information (eg a quantum >correlated EPR state [7]), without destroying the object. In principle all quantum states can be communicated in a bunch of photons. Ref not at fingertips, but issue isn't really central to discussion. >To protect against relativistic dust impact damage some of the >extra energy and mass could be used for the construction of a heat >shield. Actually just free ions as in cosmic rays will be much more numerous, and very damaging, and high velocity. Dust, well, if one grain hits you that's the end. >Problems begin when the wormhole ends *move toward* each other, and >the time-shifted traveller is able to return, by travelling through This whole paper is also in need of a few diagrams. >Once the empire-time frame has been defined it becomes increasingly >difficult to change it. As the population and economy of a region grow >*the* the numbers of holes increases. Once established*,* to change >One *possibility* is that naturally occurring wormholes, relics of the >inflationary period and inflated to astronomical dimensions [26], may > yet-unknown energy conditions - for instance if they only had *net* > positive energies. My highest level suggestion, and the one that you may not have time to implement, is to have a separate section on Wormhole Wars, rather than awkwardly discussing war between alien civilizations. I'll try to post to extropians on the subject in a few minutes. Robin Hanson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 19:37:47 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: Seagoing Primates and Undersea Domes X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission Eric S. Raymond says: > > Robert MacElwaine has written persuasively in several dozen newsgroups > > about the GEODESIC DOMES built on the BOTTOM of the SEA by the > > SEAGOING PRIMATES. > > Oh, Ghoddess! > > I'd heard of this guy. I've never seen any of his postings, though. Check alt.fan.robert-macelwaine or whatever its called on your site. > No geodesic domes for me. The version of the theory I find > plausible doesn't have human beings turning into delphinoids, just > adapting partly for spending lots of time in the water. The right > ecological analogy wouldn't really be dolphins or pinnipeds, it's be > beavers or (better) freshwater otters. Why no fossil record if its true? I was under the impression there was a pretty continuous fossil record of hominids on land in Africa from several million years ago all the way up to Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis -- and the fossils don't seem to indicate much in the way of otterlike stages. Also, if we spent so much time as semi-aquatic beasts, why the very recent divergence from Chimps (Pan Troglodites for those of you who like proper scientific names), which is what the DNA clock folks are currently claiming? Perry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 17:36:41 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: SOC/CHAT: Wolf behavior Quoth chrism@ksr.com, SADLY I saith unto thee: > Peter McCluskey wrote: > > The standard definition is that members of a species do interbreed under > > natural circumstances, not that they can be made to interbreed. This is > > a slippery distinction under some conditions. > > I'll say! Since it would almost seem that, under this definition, if I bring a > raccoon into my house* where it can't interbreed with the wild ones "under > natural circumstances" then I have created a new species! (the "housecoon?") NOT! There's a BEEEEG difference between taking 2 seemingly different animals and attempting to force-breed them, and preventing an animal from breeding at all! Gahhhh... -- Stanton McCandlish * Space Migration * Networking * ChaOrder * NO GOV'T. * anton@hydra.unm.edu * Intelligence Increase * Nano * Crypto * NO RELIGION * FidoNet: 1:301/2 * Life Extension * Ethics * VR * Now! * NO MORE LIES! * Noise in the Void BBS * +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400, v32bis, N-8-1) * ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 17:40:49 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: SATIRE: Extropian Babes in Space I second the motion that the .GIF be reposted in uu format. I was under the impression that the list rules demanded that non-plain-mail posts had to be text of some sort, but I think this is great. About a week ago I almost posted a suggestion that we post .GIFs of ourselves for fun, particularly if they are in some way artful (i.e. creative self-portraits modifed with image editors, etc., not just snapshots.) Would anyone else be into this? (keeping in mind that files 100k+ would need to be split up.) -- Stanton McCandlish * Space Migration * Networking * ChaOrder * NO GOV'T. * anton@hydra.unm.edu * Intelligence Increase * Nano * Crypto * NO RELIGION * FidoNet: 1:301/2 * Life Extension * Ethics * VR * Now! * NO MORE LIES! * Noise in the Void BBS * +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400, v32bis, N-8-1) * ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 19:39:45 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: NANOQUERY: A prob. that is bugging me X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission Stanton McCandlish says: > OK suppose we have nice nanotech that can pretty much EXACTLY duplicate a > human cell (I guess to replace damaged ones). OK well my question is, is > this artificial cell, that would not seem to be qualitatively different > from the "natural" cell, be a living thing? If you can't distinguish the "natural" cell from an identical "artificial" cell it would seem that any distinction you could make between them, other than that of origin, is meaningless. In other words, if it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and swims like a duck, its a duck. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 19:42:19 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: SOC/CHAT: Wolf behavior X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission Peter C. McCluskey says: > The standard definition is that members of a species do interbreed under > natural circumstances, not that they can be made to interbreed. This is > a slippery distinction under some conditions. Well, domesticated dogs gone feral WILL interbreed freely with wolves, so I suppose that settles that question. Perry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 17:44:54 -0600 (MDT) From: rcarter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ron Carter) Subject: CHAT: Thanks... Thanks for all the replies that all got, etc... -- Regards, Ron | rcarter@nyx.cs.du.edu | Denver, Colorado, USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 19:34:57 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: SATIRE: Extropian Babes in Space I sent this out before, but it seems to have disappeared. You can decode Romana's pic by ftp to sumex-aim.stanford.edu:info-mac/Compress-Translate/macutil-20b1-unix.shar In that shell archive, compile "hexbin". When finished, run hexbin -3 romanamailmsg and it will extract the Romana.GIF.data file. Romana needs to be spanked for posting a Mac Specific file (BinHex'd Macbinary). Next time, uuencode the GIF data directly. -Ray, who has been bad and is in need of punishment -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 16:47:19 -0700 From: freeman@MasPar.COM (Jay R. Freeman) Subject: SOC/CHAT: Take a _Velociraptor_ to lunch soon! This is *not* a posting about the "Extropian Carnivores" luncheon. I have followed the thread about killing velociraptors, but find a certain sameness to methods of preparing hamburger with high explosives. A more interesting topic might be how to make friends with them. Wait, I'm serious -- humans have been able to undertake prolonged close interactions in the wild with several species that seem no less capable of violence than the _Velociraptors_ of _Jurassic_Park_. I find the study of animals with complicated behavior fun, and interesting science. It's possibly even extropian, in the sense of being a limited prototype for encounters with intelligent aliens. I have some thoughts on how I might proceed, if I were transported to the story world of _Jurassic_Park_ with such an agenda in mind, but I will see if there is any interest before I shoot my mouth off any more. -- Jay Freeman ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 19:54:39 WET DST From: smo@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Shawn) Subject: Beauty engineering Romana writes: [She quotes someone who both misread her post and misspelt her name] Piffle, Mr. von Der Future Perfect! THINK before you post or I will have to discipline you in public!I am EC! I am busy maximizing *all* of my potientals! Gawk at the absolutely splendid .GIF I have attached! What's more, my *lovely eyes* are grue, you miserable sniveling worm, not dark! SPELL MY NAME RIGHT, or I will *SPANK*! Reading the above was entertaining enough, but I had to laugh aloud when I saw the smiling dominatrix. I am setting up a market based on Romana's email volume; contracts on the volume of private email to her site will begin trading tomorrow at noon (EST). Shawn smo@gnu.ai.mit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 93 00:31:59 GMT From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Subject: META: new list software effects Will the new list software allow me to receive from posters currently globally blocked? Like Susan Atrix, whose posts I enjoyed. > -- Ray Cromwell Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AS member (21/3/93) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 18:12:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: META: new listware - question Will the new listware allow one to see who one has been rejected by? And will it allow for timed rejections (e.g. "I'll refuse posts from Tim May for one month because he posts such garbage" ), and for comments on the reason for the rejection? I think such features would be of great value in aiding people to better themselves by learning self-control on the list. For instance if I ran a rejection check and found that Tim had refused my posts for 2 weeks, and left a comment "because you are being illogical and boorish in the thread about seamonkeys", this would have an effect based upon what value I place on Tim's rep, and what value the others place on it. As I, and the list at large apparently, value Tim highly as a list member, I would be pretty likely to take this to heart, and examine my posting habits. -- Stanton McCandlish * Space Migration * Networking * ChaOrder * NO GOV'T. * anton@hydra.unm.edu * Intelligence Increase * Nano * Crypto * NO RELIGION * FidoNet: 1:301/2 * Life Extension * Ethics * VR * Now! * NO MORE LIES! * Noise in the Void BBS * +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400, v32bis, N-8-1) * ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 17:13:06 PDT From: Robin Hanson Subject: TECH/WAR: Wormhole Wars Technology changes the face of war. How would wormholes change war? First, I'd expect defensive redundant booby-trapping of wormholes connecting potential enemy regions. Wormholes are the major transportation and communication channels; folks would invade along them if they could, so if limited in number they would be choke points - fortified against the most advanced invaders one could imagine. Second, I'd expect military powers to try and control the entry of wormholes into their territory. If war breaks out, and the enemy has lots of wormholes behind your lines, close to targets and to raw materials, they can see what you're doing and hit you fast. Bad news. So I'd expect mainly bit streams to go through official wormholes; wormhole passage through wormholes would be tightly controlled, if they could manage it. And even bit streams can be dangerous; once aliens had connected up from across the universe, it might be most unwise to run unknown complex software from distant lands, as in Vinge's "A Fire Upon the Deep". Regions with too many unknown wormholes in it might be dead zones, the sort of place no one could plausibly defend because attack could literally come from anywhere in great force. Neighboring regions might want to explode a quasar there or something to try and limit the threat of invasion from that direction. Third, regions which, for the same "empire" or "universal" time, are at an earlier cosmological co-moving time would have strong military advantages. Say war breaks out at some empire time, and existing wormholes are sealed against attack. In this case the "earlier" region can send a cloud of wormholes toward their enemies the old-fashioned way, on rockets, to arrive rather soon in empire time. If any of the wormhole cloud gets through, a beachhead is formed for attack. Similar holes sent the other way would likely be quickly destroyed by threatening to form causal loops, and even if they didn't they would take a *very* long time in empire years to get there. If warring regions have empire times at similar cosmological times, as in the meeting aliens example, and wormhole access is denied, and technological/economic growth is at all in force, then defenders have a huge advantage cause they can just wait and grow, as Mike Price commented in his paper. So the major links between and within civilizations might be under tight military control, new additions to the network subject to military veto, and regions at the geographic center of an empire having a strong military advantage. "Empire" doesn't sound so far-fetched in this case. Robin Hanson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 18:23:32 MDT From: hammar@cs.unm.edu Subject: META: extropian babes/veggie slamming esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) wrote: >I apologize to all for having co-operated in behavior that wasted your time. >-- > Eric S. Raymond I didn't find your part of the thread a waste of time. I enjoyed E-Babes in Space, but even if I hadn't any thread that produces a line like >go into rages like Donald Duck with his dick caught in his zipper can't be considered a waste. (I second Mark's opinion of Perry, incedentally. Both the positive and negative aspects of it, although I don't find Perry entertaining. The first few posts he makes on a thread are usually excellent, but after he goes into I_won't_even_consider_the_possibility_you_might_be_right mode his arguements are nearly worthless.) Neil Hammar hammar@unmvax.cs.unm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 19:16:49 CDT From: UC482529@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu Subject: SOC/CHAT: In Houston / TECH: Englebart/AUGMENT Hello, all. To judge from Phil's comment, Houston must be sadly Extropian free. Well, this will probably be remededied soon; my wife has been offered a job with a local school district (grmbl grmbl statist monopoly grmbl, but hey, it's work) and we will be relocating here in a couple of months. (I will be seeking work in the private sector; computers & networking.) For those of you with Rand-flavored aesthetics, I must tell you that the sight of an oil refinery at night is mighty inspiring. "Humans made that-- neat!" (The smell, on the otherhand, is not good; the sooner heavy industry moves offplanet, the better.) ObExtropianContent: Is anyone familiar with Douglas Englebart's work on human intellect augmentation via advanced user interfaces? (Englebart invented the mouse.) I've been aware of it ever since I saw a reference to it in the first issue of MacWorld, and have been seeing other refs to it here and there ever since. Englebart is apparently a visionary in the same vein as Ted Nelson, regarding the potential for computers to enhance human's ability to access information and communicate. Englebart is now leading an organization called the Bootstrap Institute (intriguing name, eh?), which has apparently taken over the old TOPS-20 system that used to be SRI-NIC.ARPA and is running Englebarts TOPS-20 based hypertext system on it, under the hostname BOOTSTRAP.ORG. (Englebart has not yet ported the software to newer hardware.) Rob Wiener's paper on PIEmail (a hypertexty email handler which runs on top of Hyperbole, his hypertext layer for Emacs) has a section on prior art which has an interesting few paragraphs on Englebart's efforts. I'm going to have to see if I can track down some of those references... Would anyone happen to know of a source to obtain a VHS copy of Englebart's 1968 NLS demonstration? -Anthony Garcia uc482529@mizzou1.missouri.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 19:49:02 CST From: "" Subject: TECH/WAR: Wormhole Wars On Thu, 17 Jun 93 17:13:06 PDT, Robin Hanson wrote: >Technology changes the face of war. How would wormholes change war? > >First, I'd expect defensive redundant booby-trapping of wormholes >connecting potential enemy regions. Wormholes are the major >transportation and communication channels; folks would invade along >them if they could, so if limited in number they would be choke points >- fortified against the most advanced invaders one could imagine. > You seem to be assuming each polity/society/culture is on one side of a wormhole only. Try this situation: There is a wormhole which is either natural or a relic of a long-dead civilization. On both sides, it's in relatively isolated areas. The first people to find it and make use of it have several hundred years to build around both ends of it, before the first contact with anyone else. For them, it's not a danger. It's a supply line; and if all else fails, a line of retreat. Dan Goodman dsg@staff.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 21:26:50 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: META: new list software effects a conscious being, Michael Clive Price wrote: > Will the new list software allow me to receive from posters currently > globally blocked? Like Susan Atrix, whose posts I enjoyed. > Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk no. /hawk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 21:25:57 WET DST From: smo@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Shawn) Subject: Jurassic Park Elias Israel writes: Art can be characterized as the purposeful manipulation of cultural symbols to produce and communicate a model of life. The movie at hand is a typical example of a "cautionary" tale. It asks the same question as Mary Shelley's Frankenstein: Can we live with the results of our growing capabilities or will our own creations kill us in the end? The opening act always starts out with "Are we not Gods?" and the closing act always finishes with "Are we not men?" That is certainly one way to characterize art, but I think it more useful to consider the the effects rather than various interpretations. I could just as easily say Jurassic Park was about man as Creator, bringing back to life what we thought extinct. The movie is really about the triumph of technology over death and a warning against mismanaging your financial affairs. I could probably defend this view as well as you could yours and I don't doubt that Jeremy Rifkin could walk out and praise the movie for highlighting the danger of technology. I don't care whether Marx could interpret this movie as a class struggle, or whether Rand could show how it reveals the evils of altruism. I submit that the effect of this movie, no matter what your analysis of it, will be positive. I wager that the majority of people that see this movie will come out of it with a sense of wonder and as a result they will be more curious about science and technology. The movie, regardless of Crighton's intent, will make science more popular. Companies regularly pay large sums of money to have their products shown in a movie and I see no reason to consider this anything but one big advertisement for science. Shawn smo@gnu.ai.mit.edu p.s. I heard Al Gore thought the movie doubleplusgood, it has even been intimated that the movie was carefully timed so as to lay the groundwork for the National Nanotech Initiative. We all understand that nanotech, much like beekeeping, is something the free market is not equipped to deal with. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 18:18:32 -0700 From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: "SWF seeks organs," or, Bootleg Organ Banks [Here's an article I wrote for the new mailing list, "AltInst," that Robin Hanson has set up. The idea is to debate "Alternate Institutions." I figure this is one. Rebecca Crowley sent me a note mentioning Larry Niven's seminal work on organ banks and organlegging, which I should've remembered to mention. Though I read his stories some 20 years ago, or more, his work remains the benchmark. I asked Rebecca whether I should cross-post this to Extropians with a catchy name like "Extropian Babes on Ice" or "SWF seeks organs." Apologies to those already receiving AltInst....such is life in the age of massively crosspolymerized mailing lists. Consider this a companion piece to my "BioHarvest, Inc." piece.] My proposal for a new kind of institution, or a new variant of existing institutions, is the "organ bank." For the present, it cannot be located within the United States or Europe, at least not openly, but with modern travel and communications technology, it may be located in parts of Asia or Latin America (and elsewhere, of course). The idea: A free market in body parts, with "sellers" and "buyers" of "products" (kidneys, lungs, blood, skin, whatever technology will support) participating voluntarily. Examples: * A man is dying. He realizes he can provide for his family by allowing his organs to be harvested gradually, while he is kept alive artificially. (Current law forbids this, of course. Assisted suicide is illegal in most places, let alone "terminal harvesting.") * A wealthy person needs a rare organ. Why can't he make a deal with a dying person? (Or, more boldly, arrange a lottery amongst n people, with all but one of them profiting handsomely?) * Those organs for which there are spares, such as lungs, could be traded with such a market. I envision this organ bank operating in the kind of "medical haven" Bruce Sterling speculated about in "Islands in the Net," 1988. (And I'd had similar ideas about data havens and crypto anarchy, which I won't go into right now, for some time prior to reading Sterling's prescient--but a bit boring--novel.) Imagine an island in the South Pacific, call it "Organland," with the finest hospitals, the brightest organ rejection researchers (a lot of money from dying people!), and access to lots of donors in that part of the world. Such "bootleg medical havens" would also be able to do medical research that is, for narrow-minded and Judaeo-Christian morality reasons, banned in the so-called civilized world. (One can imagine experiments which are terminal to participants...if the proper rewards and lottery arrangements are made, I see no moral problems in enforcing such contracts.) Hospice care would be combined with hospital care, in a luxurious and high-tech environment. The wealthy and politically powerful would be catered to, to better ensure that outside sanctions would not be employed, e.g., wealthy politicians can be bought off early in their careers, by offering them treatments. (One could also imagine such medical havens also being centers for cryonics research, with neuro-suspension paid for the otherwise-luckless indigents who agree to donate their organs.) Those with moral objections to selling body parts would of course be free to not use the services. To ensure that "tourists" to the island, or whatever, are not subject to the sanctions of their home governments (e.g., the U.S. might ban travel to Organland), various security procedures could be followed--such as picking up the patients in their Hong Kong hotels and transporting them in private. Likewise, digital money and similar crypto schemes could be used to circumvent stodgy and Judaeo-Christian-morality governments. It is possible that the locations of such havens will have to be kept secret. Or constantly changed. Still, the "institution" itself would exist. Doctors might consult for it, be paid in digital cash (or into their Swiss bank accounts), without even knowing the location. (For actual surgery, such remote access would be problematic, until "telepresence" is improved. Anonymous switching systems could be used to ensure that even turncoat doctors, working for the Feds, cannot compromise the security of the bootleg organ banks.) "When organ-selling is outlawed, only outlaws will sell organs." This is just a sketch of my idea. I hope to see something like this by the time I need new organs. -Tim May -- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: by arrangement Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 21:27:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: META: new listware - question a conscious being, Stanton McCandlish wrote: > > Will the new listware allow one to see who one has been rejected by? And > will it allow for timed rejections (e.g. "I'll refuse posts from Tim May > for one month because he posts such garbage" ), and for comments > on the reason for the rejection? Someone would have to write an agent to do that. -- Harry Shapiro habs@panix.com List Administrator of the Extropy Institute Mailing List Private Communication for the Extropian Community since 1991 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 21:47:33 -0400 (EDT) From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) Subject: EVOLUTION: Aquatic hominids > Uh, that bit about GEODESIC DOMES and SEAGOING PRIMATES and BUCKY and > all....uh...that was a joke, riffing off Craig Presson's comment about > geodesic domes and seagoing primates appearing in the same paragraph. > > (Hmmhh...perhaps Eric had his sense of humor surgically removed? Many > Extropians are making this TransHumorist leap.) Nope, my giggle ganglion is still here. I missed the connection and thought you were reporting on McElwaine accurately. -- Eric S. Raymond ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 21:58:58 -0400 (EDT) From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) Subject: Seagoing Primates and Undersea Domes > Why no fossil record if its true? I was under the impression there was > a pretty continuous fossil record of hominids on land in Africa from > several million years ago all the way up to Homo Sapiens Neanderthalis > -- and the fossils don't seem to indicate much in the way of otterlike > stages. Also, if we spent so much time as semi-aquatic beasts, why the > very recent divergence from Chimps (Pan Troglodites for those of you > who like proper scientific names), which is what the DNA clock folks > are currently claiming? Depends on what you mean by "continuous". I presume you're aware that (in one famous simile) the entire corpus of physical evidence for human evolution could fit on your coffee table? Anyhow, the aquatic-phase theory has never predicted much that would show in the fossil record; the major adaptations we had time to make (like the swimming nose, small webs between fingers, etc.) are all soft-tissue stuff. It may be that the only accessible record of the aquatic phase is our own present-day physiology and instincts. It is simple, observable fact that humans are much more water-loving and better swimmers than any other primate. The theory doesn't propose any revisions of the hominid phylogenetic tree either. Recent divergence from Bonzo only makes the question it tries to answer --- why are we so *different* from chimps --- more interesting. -- Eric S. Raymond ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 22:41:08 -0500 From: extr@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: SATIRE: Extropian Babes in Space In <9306172314.AA25073@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, Stanton McCandlish writes: |> > Ramana makes a failed attempt at privately produced law. We leave the |> > cause of the failure as an exercise for the interested reader. |> > |> > > From: Romana Machado |> > > |> > > SPELL MY |> > > NAME RIGHT, or I will *SPANK*! |> |> Ooh, ooh, I know! |> |> Could it be dictatorial authoritarianism, lack of due process, threats |> of physical violence, and lack of enforcement method? HARDLY. [...] |> |> PS did you intentionally misspell her name again? Either way its funny! Clue: What will she give you if you misspell her name? Something out of cutesy Victorian porn stories? -- cP ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 93 21:42:02 -0600 From: zane@genesis.mcs.com (Sameer) Subject: PERS: That kid who wanted to go to Berkeley Considering that I have time now to read all the lists I'm subbed to because now I'm out of school and unemployed, it might be a good idea to summarize to the list what's happened to me since I posted a few months ago with regards to my college plans. I am going to be attending the University of California at Berkeley, beginning this fall. I had begun to make plans for residency and financial independence, and once my parents realized I was serious about going to Cal/Berkeley they decided to pay for it. It's rather a lucky stroke, because I realized how difficult it was to obtain residency. UC recently (in the past 1-2 years) changed the residency requirements from real easy to *extremely* difficult. It *is* unfortunate that I'm still financially dependent upon my parents, subject to their whim, but at least I won't have to worry *too* much about money. Thus, I'll be moving into the dorms August 15th. Thus I can probably attend Mark Desilets' August 28th party if I can snag a ride from Berkeley. (Unless public transportation to his place is cheap enough...) (hint, hint) It might be a good idea to warn those socialists out at Berkeley of my imminent arrival. :-) Peace, -- | Sameer Parekh-zane@genesis.MCS.COM-PFA related mail to pfa@genesis.MCS.COM | | Apprentice Philosopher, Writer, Physicist, Healer, Programmer, Lover, more | | "Symbiosis is Good" - Me_"Specialization is for Insects" - R. A. Heinlein_/ \_______________________/ \______________________________________________/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 23:10:57 -0500 From: extr@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: Seagoing Primates and Undersea Domes In <9306180300.AA00130@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, Eric S. Raymond writes: |> > Why no fossil record if its true? I was under the impression there was [...] |> Depends on what you mean by "continuous". I presume you're aware that |> (in one famous simile) the entire corpus of physical evidence for human |> evolution could fit on your coffee table? I think that famous simile is a bit dated. I have personally seen enough fossils/casts and photos of hominid ancestors to cover all the tables in my rather oversized house, and I don't think that's a majority of them. The point is that all human ancestors would have to have done this aquatic phase, which moves it back at least before _Erectus_ because it was _Erectus_ that colonized the world. The timeline represented by Olduvai and Turkana takes us back to about 2 My BP with many populations apparently landbound. Your otterlike primates most likely predate that. Besides, our digits are _not_ webbed in any functional sense. That skin that you are seeing "webs" in is necessary for the flexing of the hand, and is present to some extent in other primates, including those with whom I have shaken hands. Look at your hand and notice that you are tensing it and splaying your fingers to make "webs". Now relax it and look at the palm, then at a picture of a gorilla's palm. I mean, have you ever really _looked_ at your hands? Oh, wow ... (If you're not a sixties holdover or Doonesbury reader, ignore the joke) ^ / ------/---- extropy@jido.b30.ingr.com (Freeman Craig Presson) /AS 5/20/373 PNO Ungowa /ExI 4/373 PNO ** E' and E-choice spoken here ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 23:14:20 -0500 From: extr@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: SATIRE: Extropian Babes in Space In <9306180341.AA00519@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, Craig Presson writes: |> In <9306172314.AA25073@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, Stanton McCandlish writes: |> |> > Ramana makes a failed attempt at privately produced law. We leave the |> |> > cause of the failure as an exercise for the interested reader. [...] |> Clue: ... Well, too damned late, but I meant to email that to Stanton. I don't make a habit of blowing the joke, really. F P -- c ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 23:25:15 -0500 From: extr@jido.b30.ingr.com (Craig Presson) Subject: SOC/CHAT: In Houston / TECH: Englebart/AUGMENT In <9306180035.AA26285@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu>, UC482529@MIZZOU1.missouri.edu writes: [...] |> ObExtropianContent: |> Is anyone familiar with Douglas Englebart's work on human |> intellect augmentation via advanced user interfaces? Is anyone _not_? (Englebart |> invented the mouse.) I've been aware of it ever since I saw |> a reference to it in the first issue of MacWorld, and have been |> seeing other refs to it here and there ever since. Englebart |> is apparently a visionary in the same vein as Ted Nelson, Englebart also invented Ted Nelson ;-) [...] |> over the old TOPS-20 system that used to be SRI-NIC.ARPA and |> is running Englebarts TOPS-20 based hypertext system on it, |> under the hostname BOOTSTRAP.ORG. (Englebart has not yet |> ported the software to newer hardware.) God, I love a good Old Fart. I think I'll buy a surplus DG Eclipse and implement some tremendous system in MASM, then put it on the Internet. [...] |> on Englebart's efforts. I'm going to have to see if I can track |> down some of those [references] ... |> |> Would anyone happen to know of a source to obtain a VHS copy |> of [Englebart]'s 1968 NLS demonstration? MEEEEEE TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO. I saw this film at some ACM meeting ages ago and would love to have it. ^ / ------/---- extropy@jido.b30.ingr.com (Freeman Craig Presson) /AS 5/20/373 [PNO] /ExI 4/373 PNO ** [E' and E-choice] spoken here ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 Issue #0339 ****************************************