From extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Mon Jun 14 10:48:23 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA01186; Mon, 14 Jun 93 10:48:21 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA07956; Mon, 14 Jun 93 10:48:16 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu (5.65/4.0) id ; Mon, 14 Jun 93 13:13:55 -0400 Message-Id: <9306141713.AA04410@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: ExI-Daily@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 13:13:21 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <9306141713.AA04397@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Original-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu From: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Extropians Digest V93 #0324 X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on June 14, 373 P.N.O. [17:13:54 UTC] Reply-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: OR Extropians Digest Mon, 14 Jun 93 Volume 93 : Issue 0324 Today's Topics: DIET: A & C [1 msgs] DIET: Milk allergies [2 msgs] DIET: The May Equation [2 msgs] Diet: Vegan is EC [2 msgs] LIFE-EX:Durk & Sandy [1 msgs] LIFE-EX:Durk & Sandy Interviewed In Latest Laissez-Faire Catalog [2 msgs] MEDIA: Jurassic Park [1 msgs] MUSIC: Off my shelf... [1 msgs] MUSIC: any Extropian recommendations? [2 msgs] MUSIC: extropian tunes [1 msgs] Nanotech Moonshots and Government Funding [1 msgs] POINTER: Alienable Rights [1 msgs] POLY: HSG theory, a question for the group... [3 msgs] QUERY: foreskin mutilation [1 msgs] SPEECH: Judeo-Christian ethics [1 msgs] diet [2 msgs] unsubscribe me [1 msgs] Administrivia: This is the digested version of the Extropian mailing list. Please remember that this list is private; messages must not be forwarded without their author's permission. To send mail to the list/digest, address your posts to: extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu To send add/drop requests for this digest, address your post to: exi-daily-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu To make a formal complaint or an administrative request, address your posts to: extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu If your mail reader is operating correctly, replies to this message will be automatically addressed to the entire list [extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu] - please avoid long quotes! The Extropian mailing list is brought to you by the Extropy Institute, through hardware, generously provided, by the Free Software Foundation - neither is responsible for its content. Forward, Onward, Outward - Harry Shapiro (habs) List Administrator. Approximate Size: 54418 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 18:39:21 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: DIET: Milk allergies Quoth Richard Kennaway, verily I saith unto thee: > > No tea (including herbal), coffee, or alcohol? Are they bad as well, or is > this just personal taste? Well of course they're bad: alcohol kills neurons, and caffein's been shown to temporarily REDUCE intelligence, stimulant or not (Dean & Morgenthaler, _Smart_Drugs_and_Nutrients_), and both are addictive. But hell, I dunno what I'd do without Coke and Guinness...as for herbal tea, depends on the herb. Just because something is called a[n] "herb" doesn't make it good for you! :) -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 18:54:59 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: SPEECH: Judeo-Christian ethics Quoth John McPherson, verily I saith unto thee: > > Centered on the question "Have Judeo-Christian ethics advanced or > degraded civilization?" was a joint-meeting between the Humanist Never would've thought there'd be any question about that... >;) Anyway, while I'm here, please post it to the exi-essay list, that would be great, sounds quite interesting. Is is redistributable? -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 19:44:14 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: DIET: A & C Quoth Perry E. Metzger, verily I saith unto thee: [re: A, E, C, Chromium picolinate] > If anyone has some information on sources of solid data on optimal > dosages of these and other similar substances, I'd heartily appreciate > hearing it. I'll give it a looksee. Got plenty of refs at home, and I'll be out of the office [as if I have a REAL office, heh] in a few hrs. -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 23:23:28 -0400 From: Alexander Chislenko Subject: MEDIA: Jurassic Park I, too, found "Jurassic Park" very spectacular, and would recommend it to anyone. Not for small children though: it's a bit too scary. Veloceraptors were fantastic! and SO real! Also, the scientific part was of interest: the dinosauruses [-ra?] for the park were reconstructed from DNA fragments found in the blood that was extracted from dinos by ancient mosquitoes that were soon trapped in amber; the missing pieces were taken from frogs that are dino's more or less close relatives. I am quite sure that the blood in those mosquitoes isn't very fresh and has sustained a lot of damage from chemical and thermal processes, as well as radiation, and I do not know whether gnats could really drink blood of T.Rex, but the whole scenario seems quite feasible (I think it has already been discussed on the list). I wonder if anybody knows how big dino's DNA fragments can be found in such old fossils (and viruses, and ourselves, and wherever), and what can theoretically be reconstructed from them? Can we, by analyzing every molecule on this planet, reconstruct a full *personal* genealogical tree of all its fauna and flora? This would be a real thrill. Too bad the tastes of mass audience would justify spending a few dollars for making the plot sound scientific (just to be believable), and spend the rest $40M for tickling the basic physico-emotional layer that is common for humans and primitive animals. As always, nobody even attempts to discuss the real implications of the suggested technologies. And as it always happens (with aliens, computers, etc.), the movie attempts to build and exploit *fear* - a feeling that may not be very beneficial for the technological progress, though quite understandable in such small animals as humans. Maybe, if we evolved from some respectable species, like lions or elephants, our fiction would find fear a difficult thing to exploit, and would concentrate more on the thrill of progress itself. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ | Alexander Chislenko | sasha@cs.umb.edu | Cambridge, MA | (617) 864-3382 | ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 23:26:37 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: DIET: The May Equation a conscious being, Michael Clive Price wrote: > Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk > > 33, 6'8", 102 lb, teetotal, non-smoker, mostly veg - but no exercise > grandparents' average of death (includes 2 smokers) = 80 (still rising) Wow you must really be skinny. My ave. grandparent lived to be 79 and one is still alive so the figure is still increasing. One died at age 48, was a very very heavy smoker, and a rather bad heart and was epiletic (sp?). I figure a good diet and no smoking should at at least 10 years to his life. He was rumored to smoke a carton of cigs at a "sitting." /hawk ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 23:56:38 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Moore Subject: QUERY: foreskin mutilation On Sun, 13 Jun 1993, Stanton McCandlish wrote: > Anyone happen to know how, why and when circumcision came to be a "normal" > practice in this country? Personally, it really torques me that my > genitals were mutilated when I couldn't speak to object, but oh . . . . > > -- > When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! > Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS HMMMM--you could try new intro to your sign line: When circumcision is outlawed only outlaws will be circumsized! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 22:09:32 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: Nanotech Moonshots and Government Funding > Indeed, I believe that nanotechnology in the hands of current > governmental authorities would lead to an unbreakable dictatorship. My > real, Honest-To-Ghod(TM) hope is that we have enough time to smash the > state and get used to that before nanotech arrives. > > Perry I hear that. Here's the odds I put on 3 possible outcomes were the govt to still be around when nano gets here: totalitarian dicatorship -- 20% total annihilation due to utter stupidity, greed, sloth and politics -- 79% everythang be fine -- 1% And that's beening optimistic. >;) -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 00:36:22 -0400 (EDT) From: RYAN Alan Porter Subject: POINTER: Alienable Rights Just as a followup to Alex's human bashing, I would like to extend this pointer to a very good commentary article in this month's Discover magazine. The topic is whether or not machines should be given 'human' rights if they become reasonably intelligent. The article was written by Marvin Minsky, who turned the questionon ear by writing a Socratic dialog between two nanotech mechanized lifeforms from another planet. No, make that another place, there was no hint of any dependancy on rocks. Anyway, the article verges on science fiction, but it is a very subtle and insightful commentary on the inefficiencies of the current state of humanity, and a possible glimpse at the future of human evolution. I liked it, much better than Cats, I'm going to read it again and again... -=Ryan=- the Bit Wallah ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 23:00:59 -0600 (MDT) From: rcarter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ron Carter) Subject: MUSIC: Off my shelf... Some stuff I have been listening to, over the past few weeks: Soundtrack from the Coppola movie, Rumblefish, Stewart Copeland Little Earthquakes, Tori Amos The Dark Side of the Moon, Pink Floyd Bridge of Sighs, Robin Trower Soundtrack from the Lynch movie, Dune, Toto Pyramid, The Alan Parson Project Give Happyhead, Happyhead The Sensual World, Kate Bush Animals, Pink Floyd O'cean, Larkin Warchild, Jethro Tull Abbey Road, The Beatles How much of this is Extropian in nature? Hmmm, the opening cut (and only vocal on the CD) on the Rumblefish soundtrack, is titled "Don't Box Me In"; not -too- Extropian... I listen to usual wide range of music, classical to rock, so... I am pretty MOR anymore. -- Ron Carter \ Director \ Center for the Study of Creative Intelligence rcarter@nyx.cs.du.edu \ CSCI \ Denver, CO USA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 23:10:07 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: diet > What work of fiction mentioned racing dogs with no guts? Got me. > Mention of the "recent" mutation that allows me to drink milk reminds me of > another one. I heard once that some humans see green as a primary (I do), and > some don't (or have been taught to say it's blue+yellow). Any comment? Well, I am not sure what you mean by "see green as a primary". I don't see things as primaries, I see them as colours, tints, hues. If you mean do I think of green as a primary then no, when I'm dealing with paint and the like, since in such media green is NOT a primary. I do think of it as a primary when dealing with direct light, such as that irradiating my skull as I type this, because in such situations, it is a primary. Am I missing something? I really don't seem to get your question. -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 23:21:39 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: LIFE-EX:Durk & Sandy Interviewed In Latest Laissez-Faire Catalog Quoth Derek Zahn, verily I saith unto thee: > > Stanton: > > > Both of them, in their books anyway, > > recommend a healthy diet, so I dunno where the > > "eat garbage" charge comes from... > > For example, their book _Life Extension_, page 367: > > The two of us together in a week consume: 1 to 2 dozen eggs; about > a pound or two of butter; several pounds of beef, poultry, and pork; > and 4 to 5 gallons of whole (not low-fat) milk. > Keep in mind that no one just EATS butter, you use it to cook. A pound cake for instance is called that becuase the recipe calls for a pound of butter. I can eat 5 lb. cakes or more a week, and not gain an ounce. Now what they are eating that uses so much butter, I don't know, but it is rather moot. The idea that they just chow down on butter pats is silly (unless they are VERY strange), so most of that butter is likely in sauces, breads and other doughy foods, etc. I also drink a bunch of whole milk, and don't consider it garbage. I don't LIKE milk a whole lot, but I still drink it for the calcium (recent list discussion is making me consider dumping it though). Most people consider meat to be a good thing to eat. I don't see 'garbage' here. > page 371: > > As for our diet, we eat what we like.... We get our high doses > of vitamins and minerals from bottles rather than relying on > the foods we eat. Again, does this mean it is garbage? I also eat what I like but I generally eat pretty good (not by vege standards, but oh well.) Again, considering that nutrition talk pops up in D&S pretty often, I doubt they eat garbage, I think their (rather exaggerated) point is that you don't have to follow some strict diet plan to get the nutrition you need. But I could be wrong. So sue me. -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 1:17:47 WET DST From: rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu (Ray) Subject: diet Stanton McCandlish writes: > > > What work of fiction mentioned racing dogs with no guts? > > Got me. > > > Mention of the "recent" mutation that allows me to drink milk reminds me of > > another one. I heard once that some humans see green as a primary (I do), and > > some don't (or have been taught to say it's blue+yellow). Any comment? > > Well, I am not sure what you mean by "see green as a primary". I don't > see things as primaries, I see them as colours, tints, hues. If you mean He means in terms of detail. Humans can discriminate more hues in the yellow/green range than in the red/blues. For this reason, it would be better if computer palettes used say, 10 bits for green, and 7bits for red/blue. -- Ray Cromwell | Engineering is the implementation of science; -- -- EE/Math Student | politics is the implementation of faith. -- -- rjc@gnu.ai.mit.edu | - Zetetic Commentaries -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 23:28:24 -0600 (MDT) From: rcarter@nyx.cs.du.edu (Ron Carter) Subject: POLY: HSG theory, a question for the group... I am a little bit curious; it has been a few weeks since I posted my original 7 part post, and then the all-in-one version of my theory, and the response, was, ummm, a bit underwhelming, and I was a little curious as to why such a (lack of) response. I did get a few email notes, mostly requests for missing sections, and one public post for some clarification, but really nothing else. I had predicted (to myself) that there would be more of a penetration of Gestalts in the Extropian group, than in the general population, and that the post would generate a moderate response, if only of a curiousity factor. Hmmm (thinking out loud...) did the theory sound too nutty for you, another flying swami kind of thing? Can one assess "nuttiness" in one's ownself? Maybe not; hence I only have what others' responses have been to me, and my theory. Loud? Rude? Opinionated? Passionate? Gentle? Kind? Yeah, all those (and more) have been used to describe me... Crazy? Not yet. The theory? Some people have responded with "Oh, that's nice...", but so far, Gestalts that I have identified through the process of personal interview, have almost (scaringly at times) always accepted it at face value, with nary a "sounds nutty to me" in the bunch. Was it because you had no "personal" interest in it, ie it didn't appeal to you, or make you curious? Hmmm... Or, wasn't there enough "concreteness" to it for you? Not as an excuse, but an explanation; other than a (very large) bunch of mostly anecdotal information, there isn't a hard body of evidence. Sure, I consider A.H. Maslow as leading to my conclusions, and I think his (posthumous, important as it was one of the few works of his not to be highly edited) "The Farther Reaches of Human Nature" to be all but the explanation of the behavioral side of the Gestalt Theory. There is also "Inheritance of Creative Intelligence" by Jon Karlsson, which describes the genetics of what I think help further explain the existence of Gestalts. But, I read both of these, after I had come up with basics of the theory, they just helped me clarify the nature of the beast. The process of discovery demands a phenomena, that seems to need an explanation, with a plausible explanation hopefully found. I needed a answer to explain my own behavior, and discovered it was a shared behavior, not unique to myself, and have come up with not only a plausible, but workable explanation for it. Yes, I do hope to have a more concrete, do this test, measure this, set of information sometime, but I am (for what I consider good reasons) going slow for now. You were/are part of this process, and for that, I thank you. Regards, -- Ron Carter \ Director \ Center for the Study of Creative Intelligence rcarter@nyx.cs.du.edu \ CSCI \ Denver, CO USA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 23:48:22 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: MUSIC: any Extropian recommendations? Quoth hhuang@Athena.MIT.EDU, verily I saith unto thee: > > Valerie Lamber writes, > > Speaking of which, do Extropians have any particularly Extropian music > recommendations? Even if one is perhaps ``vegging'' by listening to > music, I certainly feel there are some forms of music which may not be > capital-E Extropian, but can certainly be described as more > ``extropianly'' than others. > Personal faves: Skinny Puppy, Ministry, Front242, Front Line Assembly, and a few other techno-industrial (PRE-rave BS, thank you) bands; REAL industrial, such as Einstuertzende Neubauten, Test Dept (BRILLIANT percussion work, and the bagpipes really are great, quite different from what people expect of "industrial" music), et al. Also like some wanky "new wave" [I really hate how these terms keep migrating...] D. Mode to a certain extent, and some Cure. As for underground stuff, Arson Garden is a must. Out of the rock vein, Dead Can Dance is probably my #1 fave artists of all time. The only band I can think of that does some pop and industrial here and there (mostly on older albums), interspersed with Latin chants, authentic mediaeval dances, hypnotic rhythmic percussion, a capella laments, etc. Nothing like them anywhere in the world. Also recommend older Clannad, and Irish folk music in general, especially in Gaelic, Jan Garbarek's Norwegian stuff, Bel Canto (also Norwegian), the Gyuto Monks (Tibetan Buddhist chants; these are probably the only human beings on the planet that can sing 2- and 3-note CHORDS. Amazing, and the trippiest stuff you will ever hear, great for meditation), Enya, Cage, Stockhausen, Throbbing Gristle, Lou Reed, Police, U2 (old), A Split Second, Cocteau Twins (old especially, new stuff is rather weak), Minor Threat, Rollins Band and Black Flag, Suzanne Vega [had a dream about her just last night, it was pretty strange], Pigface, Murder Inc., Revolting Cocks, Mozart, Beethoven, Bach, Vivaldi (esp. the mandolin concertos), Pachelbel, Orff (Carmina Burana - O Fortuna is just unparalleled; granted he didn't really write it, but still); if you get some wierd itch for metal, try some mid-'80s Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, and AC/DC, and Ozzy too if you must; if you HAVE to have country, I'd recommend Lyle Lovett and classic Johnny Cash ("Ring of Fire", I love it.) New age, I detest with only one exception, Vangelis; and even most of his stuff I am unimpressed with (_China_ is good); lessee...Wagner, a good compliation of '78-'85 new wave (e.g. Devo, Missing Persons, etc.), REM (pre-_Document_). That's all I can dredge up right off the top of my head at work that I'd heartily recommend. Oops add Tom Waits in there too, definately. -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jun 1993 23:58:26 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: MUSIC: extropian tunes Forgot to add one superextropian thrash/industrial/metal band: Voivod. Just great. They have a lot of bizzaro sci-fi themes, and the sound is really unlike anything else in the genre. This is heavy duty so be forewarned. Also anything older than their last 3 albums is more like conventional thrash/speed metal. -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 08:01:38 GMT From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Subject: LIFE-EX:Durk & Sandy Stanton McCandlish: > I also drink a bunch of whole milk, and don't consider > it garbage. I don't LIKE milk a whole lot, but I still > drink it for the calcium (recent list discussion is making me > consider dumping it though). Whoa! Don't stop drinking milk (unless you're intolerant..) The only hard data I've seen says milk is a considerable protector against premature cardiac-death. It emerged from a longitudinal study of life style as one of two factors affecting survival. The conclusion was 1) don't smoke 2) drink a pint of full cream milk a day In British middle aged-males the high milk drinkers had fatality rate, from heart disease, _1/8_ of their low milk consumers. There was a smaller (statistically non-significant) effect for females. On Pearson ad Shaw. Gawd, they do look _awful!_ I suggest it is partly due to their suicidal sunbathing. If they were smart they'd stay out of the sun, instead of dancing naked in the desert. Suntouched, methinks > Stanton McCandlish Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AS member (21/3/93) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 07:48:19 GMT From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Subject: DIET: The May Equation I wrote: > 33, 6'8", 102 lb, teetotal, non-smoker, mostly veg - but no exercise > grandparents' average of death (includes 2 smokers) = 80 (still rising) Correction:weight = 90kg / 198 lb Harry Shapiro writes: > I figure a good diet and no smoking should at at least 10 years > to his life. He was rumored to smoke a carton of cigs at a "sitting." That sounds about right. Heavy smoking alone is a serious shorter. Here are some stats I saw recently. Life expectancy of doctors tracked from 35 => 70 and 90 (presumably mostly male) Proportion reaching 70 yrs 90 yrs Heavy Smokers 1/2 3/200 Light Smokers 2/3 9/200 Non-Smokers 4/5 3/20 which suggests an 8-year extension, roughly, _rising_ as you get older. > hawk Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AS member (21/3/93) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 1:11:23 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: POLY: HSG theory, a question for the group... Gestalt writes and requests that other Gestalts comment: > I am a little bit curious; it has been a few weeks since I posted > my original 7 part post, and then the all-in-one version of my > theory, and the response, was, ummm, a bit underwhelming, and I > was a little curious as to why such a (lack of) response. (Gestalt has elided the remainder of Gestalt's post, as Authentic Gestalts have Internalized the Meaning) PART ONE, OF TWELVE--How Gestalt Faced His Linear Conflict Gestalt found that his reply all started a month ago. Gestalt knew he did not fit in, and wondered if he did not understand Mr. Carter's theory because he, Gestalt, was merely an Imposter. Gestalt decided to try to understand this theory and Gestalt awaited with eagerness each of the severn parts. (But Gestalt also wondered why they were not simply part of one file, seeing as how they were so short.) Gestalt took a dose of Mega-B complex to increase his dopamine levels, and began reading. The fully self-actualized Gestalt realized his confusion lay in his Otherness, his desire for Becoming-unto-Being. Realizing the Gestalt Mechanism was a result of his sugar consumption and social environment, Gestalt internalized the "numbing" effects of the Carter posts by creating fuse links with other HSGs (Homo Sapiens Gestalts). Thus, Gestalt became-unto-being Gestalt Mechanism Prime, or GMP'. Next: How Gestalt internalized his externalities and surmounted the Gestalt-Linear Conflict. -Klaus! von Gestalt Prime ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 13:14:13 BST From: Simon Kinahan Subject: Diet: Vegan is EC > > clayb@cellar.org says: > I've found that I had some borderline alergic reactions to dairy > products that I wasn't aware of. Many people are also lactose > intolerant without even realizing it. I also must say that, overall, > it was easier for me to get rid of the dairy entirely than partially > -- it simplified things a lot. In general, dairy products are most > suited to the nutrition of calves and not adult humans, no matter what > the dairy industry says. And you don't really need that much calcium > in your diet if you aren't eating too much protien. > There is an old wives tale to the effect that excess milk products make colds worse and can exacerbate other allergies in *just about everyone* . A freind of mine who is a professional herbalist says that this is widely accepted as fact in the far east. Simon Kinahan "Only in our dreams are we truly free, scgk@dcs.ed.ac.uk the rest of ythe time we need wages. " -- Terry Pratchett, Wyrd Sisters ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 9:16:58 CDT From: pmfitzge@fitz.b30.ingr.com (Patrick Fitzgerald) Subject: MUSIC: any Extropian recommendations? hhuang@Athena.MIT.EDU says: > > Speaking of which, do Extropians have any particularly > Extropian music recommendations? I like Oingo Boingo. Sorta punkish, good horn section. Some lyrics: CAPITALISM There's nothing wrong with capitalism. There's nothing wrong with free enterprise. Stop trying to make me feel guilty. I'm sick and tired of hearing you whine. There's nothing wrong with making some profit, If you ask me I will tell you it's fine. There's nothing wrong with wanting to live right I'm so tired of hearing you cry About the revolution, And bringing down the rich, When was the last time you dug a ditch, baby? You're just a middle-class socialist brat, From a suburban family, And you never really had to work. Now you tell me that you want to get back To the "struggling masses", whoever they are. You talk, talk, talk about suffering and pain. Your mouth is bigger than your entire brain! What the hell do you know about suffering and pain? WAKE UP (IT'S 1984) Open your eyes, sisters and brothers Neatly disguised, so far away Open your heart, try to remember Two worlds apart, but so close Wake up, it's 1984 Wake up, but we've been here before FLESH AND BLOOD We're all the same underneath our shell We've all been to hell and we know what it's like And we've shared each other's sins We all know what it's like to give up the fight We've all been ashamed at one time or another We all have dreams and nightmares too When it all comes down we'll look out for each other (No one else will) But when I hear the call when I feel the thirst When the catcher comes to take my soul, He's gonna have to fight me first... -- ______ Patrick M. Fitzgerald pmfitzge@ingr.com / ___ ) --------------Intergraph Corporation-------------- / __)/ /__ Senior Software Analyst TIM & DBT Documentation (_/it(_____) (205)730-3741, Bldg 30, Room 122m, Mailstop GD3002 Got to keep the loonies on the path - Pink Floyd, "Brain Damage", _The Dark Side of the Moon_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 08:06:14 EDT From: clayb@cellar.org Subject: DIET: Milk allergies Stanton McCandlish writes: > Well of course they're bad: alcohol kills neurons, and caffein's been > shown to temporarily REDUCE intelligence, stimulant or not (Dean & > Morgenthaler, _Smart_Drugs_and_Nutrients_), and both are addictive. I, for one, don't consider SD&N a reliable source anymore. In any case, D&M *conclude* that caffeine reduces intelligence, while the studies that they cite show only that certain dosages reduce short-term memory capabilities. Anybody who has "overdosed" on caffeine knows that it can be deleterious, leading to e.g. a very short attention span and paranoia. However, I know that given a reasonable dose of caffeine, I and others can *do more*, By my definition, what it does is an intelligence increase. Of course, I'm one of the ones who eschews caffeine. But I do that because it is addictive, and I'm ultimately lead into a build-crash cycle that I don't like. In addition, it's a diuretic, seems to cause sleep problems, and breaks me out. As a habit, no thanks. Cheers Clay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 08:44:35 -0800 From: lefty@apple.com (Lefty) Subject: LIFE-EX:Durk & Sandy Interviewed In Latest Laissez-Faire Catalog >Sandy is unattractive, and Durk is downright ugly, but they are both >quite older than they look in most pictures. With _this_ picture, he'd have to be nine hundred... -- Lefty (lefty@apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 10:31:33 -0400 (EDT) From: esr@snark.thyrsus.com (Eric S. Raymond) Subject: Diet: Vegan is EC > There is an old wives tale to the effect that excess milk products > make colds worse and can exacerbate other allergies in *just about everyone* > . A freind of mine who is a professional herbalist says that this is widely > accepted as fact in the far east. This "old wives tale" is quite true. There's even some evidence that substances found in milk may be responsible for the high incidence of diabetes in America, by triggering an autoimmune reaction that destroys islet cells. -- Eric S. Raymond ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 08:47:17 -0800 From: lefty@apple.com (Lefty) Subject: unsubscribe me >For even the wisest of humans may not be as wise as a cat--within the cats >limited potential for wisdom. Given humans huge potential for wisdom--and the >little wisdom that most of us possess--my quess is a higher percentage of cats >fulfill their wisdom potential than do humans. I'd be careful not to assume to much here. One of the few words I know in Mandarin Chinese is "miao". It means "marvelous". I personally suspect that there is more going on here than meets the eye. -- Lefty (lefty@apple.com) C:.M:.C:., D:.O:.D:. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jun 93 10:25:24 CDT From: derek@cs.wisc.edu (Derek Zahn) Subject: POLY: HSG theory, a question for the group... Re: Ron Carter's curiosity about his MSG theory: I didn't respond to the original series because it wasn't very interesting to me. However, I'll interpret your latest message as a further request for comments, and make some. I am not trying to be rude; merely blunt and to-the-point and maybe a bit playful. It is not at all uncommon for "smart" people to be poorly-adjusted socially (read: "not fitting in"). This can lead to all kinds of ideas about being different, depression, and so on. I'm sure that many on the list have felt that way at one time or another, or at least we all know people like that. I don't think there's some big mystery about it. A certain type of intellectual prediliction can sometimes lead to excessive self-absorption; under such scrutiny, anybody would think of themselves as different from other people. Your theory is purportedly of a brain mechanism. This caught my interest. Despite splitting a post whose length is much shorter than the average short story into lots of pieces (which made it difficult to follow), I figured I'd see what this brain mechanism was. You admit to starting by exploring such things as: > UFOs, psychic phenomena ... the New Age .. which is not uncommon for people who exhibit the mild sort of psychotic symptoms you describe. From the experience, you decide that, surprise, a > -holistic- approach to explaining, and describing the things around us is common to all of this. The reason for this is that -holistic- descriptions can get away with being vague and content-free ("all is one" my foot!). You then > Stumbled across a book on what is > called the Imposter Phenomenon ... [where people] felt a certain > amount of failure; they felt like they were faking it all. This describes 99% of humanity, as far as I can tell -- a wise approach when writing a book: make sure just about everybody can identify with the supposedly "special" state being described (then claim that only 5% actually have the special quality). The "faking it" feeling is also, in its more extreme forms, a classic telltale symptom of clinical depression -- or so my psychiatrist told me years ago. Apparently, though, > the commonality between these people (and myself) was some > kind of common brain structure; a specific brain mechanism shared > by these people. What evidence led to that conclusion? Either by "brain mechanism" you mean something specifically physiological, for which you give no evidence -- or else you just mean "psychological mechansim", in which case -- well, duh! > So, now I had a theorized brain physiology, No you didn't! You had a very partially-baked idea that there might be something physiological going on. It's like if it struck me that FTL travel were possible, that implied that I had a physical theory. > First, analyze what the true behavior pattern was, as it wasn't > totally about feeling like an imposter; I had felt that way at times, > but wasn't faking it; I was simply good at a lot of things. You desperately need to state what it is you are looking for. That is, how did you decide "what the true behavior pattern was"? Whatever behavior you notice in yourself? Whatever you arbitrarily fixate on in others? What is your methodology? You claim to have been at this for years. Do you have anything other than a vague sense of recognition to go on? At this point in your post, I'd already decided that it was some kind of elaborate jest, because the above paragraph is such a classic example of reasoning produced by mild cases of schizophrenia. Note that I'm not trying to say that you're any more "psychotic" than anybody else... most of us have mental peculiarities of one kind or another, including me. But I think it's a mistake to blow a sense of "not fitting in" up into some kind of ill-posed physiological category based on no particular evidence or clear reasoning. It's not too uncommon... witness the group of people who think that the reason THEY don't fit in is that they are "walk-ins"... > It quickly became evident, that what was going on was the ability > to analyze lots of things at the same time or the illusion thereof, as your analysis as presented here is anything but clear. > a -holistic- approach. Once again, the word that neither has nor requires a definition. How -convenient-. > Ah, a holistic brain structure! Eh? Minsky refers to this kind of bizarre aha experience as a mental short-circuit, where the "convinced" agents get activated without the normal precursors. I mean really, "holistic brain structure"? As opposed to "atomistic brain structure"? > Perhaps, a small structure; frontal lobe(?); corpus collossum(?); > stem(?); could be a different kind of synapse; and not enough > had been done in this area. This is gobbledegook! How many months did you spend wondering if the frontal lobe was the "small structure" responsible for the "holistic brain structure"? What do you mean by a different type of synapse? I presume you know something about the physiology of synapses; what sort of difference do you have in mind, and what do you think it could account for? > started seeing some common things between what I was > looking at, and schizophrenia! And under Hillary's newage health plan, it can be treated for free! Sorry to be flippant; I'm still sort of convinced the whole thing is an elaborate joke. If not, I mean no ill will with my sarcasm, and think that this post does contain enough substantive questions to keep you busy explaining, if you want to. If you've spent as long on this theory as you claim, you must have some answers to the more basic points. > started finding the common points of what I was trying > to figure out. Books, the printed word, TV, movies; ah, forms of > data, informations sources... Jack/Jill of all trades; interested > in all subjects... Conflictive relationships; conflict in self > motivation, self discipline. This is called "projection". But still, sure there are a lot of bright people who lack self discipline and have broad interests. To an extent, I suppose I'm like that too. But so what? An alternative explanation (not one that I'm endorsing, just one that I put forward to point out that there are alternatives). Bright little kids can get by without much cooperation or self- discipline because much comes easy to them. They retain these traits. Bright little kids learn quickly so they tend to have broad interests. The lack of discipline and easy acquisition of that "first bit of competence" (e.g. playing guitar a little, writing tolerably well, etc) encourages the abandonment of projects when the learning curve gets steeper. > Gestalt physiology was getting easier to understand; the brain > mechanism, the Gestalt Mechanism (GM) was brain based 1. I presume that you are consciously using the term Gestalt in conflict with its usual use in psychology. Why? 2. "brain based" as opposed to what? "kneecap based"? > Neural synapses are dopamine driven; it follows the GM is as well. This is ridiculous. Dopamine is an important neurotransmitter, yes -- but so is serotonin. So are the endomorphins, which are much more common targets for "nontraditional" brain research! > Dopamine production is aided by taking B complex vitamins, which > in turn is aided by vitamin C; tryptophan might play a role too. Mmph. Why tryptophan in particular? And how does vitamin C aid "taking B complex vitamins"? > multi-co-recessive genetic structure ie more than one > recessive genes working together; not the 1 in 4 number of what > we see in traditional recessive structures, but (what I realized > very recently) a 1 in 16 (1/4 X 1/4) or 6.25 percent appearance. I can take any trait that occurs at some percentage and concoct a "multi-co-recessive" genetic argument for it. That doesn't mean it's true. If about 6 percent of people develop obsessively devout religious behavior, does that mean that it's caused by two recessive genes? > All the classic signs of sine wave behavior. hee! Next time: "All the classic sines of sign wave behavior." > The Gestalt might show signs of other recessive physiology eg > double jointness, blue eye/brown hair combos, etc. WHY? On the face of it, this is simple ignorance about genetics. If these other recessive genes are linked to the hypothetical GM genes, how would this happen? [further schizophrenic "us-vs-them" description of "Linears" elided] > I theorize that (especially within the Gestalt mind/brain) neural > pathways are formed, with the integration of new ideas or concepts. Eh? > There is a possibility the only people able to experience a true > creative process (ingenuity, inventiveness, innovativeness) are > Gestalt; it appears the most fundamental changes that occurred to > society have Gestalt roots. Oh good -- another "only me and people like me are capable of X". Last time I saw such a thing on this list was maybe a year ago, regarding True Scientists. Summary: A mildly entertaining but ridiculous joke posting about schizophrenia as a 2-recessive-gene trait involving altered brain structure and heavily involving dopamine. And another day passes on the ol' mailing list. derek Me: you can just hear the gestalt angst in pat metheny's guitar, can't you? Me: no, you can't, you worthless slug. get to work Me: i don't want to... i'm bored ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 Issue #0324 ****************************************