From extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Mon Jun 7 09:59:03 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA06106; Mon, 7 Jun 93 09:59:02 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA17970; Mon, 7 Jun 93 09:58:55 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu (5.65/4.0) id ; Mon, 7 Jun 93 12:54:22 -0400 Message-Id: <9306071654.AA10442@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: ExI-Daily@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Mon, 7 Jun 93 12:54:01 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <9306071654.AA10431@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Original-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu From: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Extropians Digest V93 #0304 X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on June 7, 373 P.N.O. [16:54:21 UTC] Reply-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: OR Extropians Digest Mon, 7 Jun 93 Volume 93 : Issue 0304 Today's Topics: *** 3 Mailing Lists [1 msgs] BRAIN: obscure speculation [2 msgs] COMP: bits into long term memory [2 msgs] COSMO: HOLOGRAPHIC UNI [1 msgs] COSMO: Herbert, Sheldrake, Bohm, etc etc. [1 msgs] COSMO: Nick Herbert's 8 Quantum Realities [1 msgs] Diet: Vegan is EC [3 msgs] FWD: UK communications mailing lists (2 of 3, anyway) [1 msgs] Fermi paradox after nanotech [1 msgs] Fermi paradox solved bio weapons [3 msgs] GUNS: summary of article - repost policy [1 msgs] HUMOUR: Cropcircles, horse buggery and Illuminati Disease! [1 msgs] HUMOUR: Fermi & the xenozoics [1 msgs] Reason Magazine [1 msgs] SF: Fact about Wormholes, Aliens and Time Travel [1 msgs] SF: Novel about Wormholes, Aliens, and Time Travel [1 msgs] SPACE: Fermi paradox, etc. [1 msgs] Trouble brewing [1 msgs] Trouble brewing (fwd) [1 msgs] diversified portfolio? [1 msgs] Administrivia: This is the digested version of the Extropian mailing list. Please remember that this list is private; messages must not be forwarded without their author's permission. To send mail to the list/digest, address your posts to: extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu To send add/drop requests for this digest, address your post to: exi-daily-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu To make a formal complaint or an administrative request, address your posts to: extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu If your mail reader is operating correctly, replies to this message will be automatically addressed to the entire list [extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu] - please avoid long quotes! The Extropian mailing list is brought to you by the Extropy Institute, through hardware, generously provided, by the Free Software Foundation - neither is responsible for its content. Forward, Onward, Outward - Harry Shapiro (habs) List Administrator. Approximate Size: 51114 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 06 Jun 1993 15:48:57 -0500 (EST) From: KMOSTA01@ULKYVX.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Reason Magazine Karl says: "Too bad Clinton can't read" Well, this assumes that Clinton wants the citizens of this country to prosper and be happy. I think this is a silly assumption. He wants to be in power, that's it. Krzys' ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1993 16:55:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Moore Subject: COSMO: Nick Herbert's 8 Quantum Realities On Sat, 5 Jun 1993, Stanton McCandlish wrote: (in re: Nick Herbert's #3 "quantum reality" "The world is undivided wholeness") > Nah, the Holographic Universe stuff I have read so far seems to be based > on Bohm. As Herbert goes on to say: "The notion that the world is an inseparble whole arises from the presence in quntum theory of 'phase entaglement.' In the quantum formalism, two quons that have once interacted do not separate into two waveforms when they move apart but are forever afterward represented as a single wave. Whether this wholeness of representation is matched by a wholeness of being is a question that was posed by certain thoughtful physicists, especiall Erwin Schrodinger and David Bohm." So we can see that my distillation of 18 months ago was sloppy. However, writing on bbs has tightened up my act because we KNOW how nitpickers lover to jump all over our nits! :-) > The author of the particular work I read lately, > _The_Holographic_Unverse_ by Michael Talbot, also tried to integrate > Sheldrake, chaos theory, QM, Eastern thought a la _Tao_of_Physics_, Jung's > synchronicity [_Synchronicity:_The_Bridge_Between_Matter_and_Mind, F. > David Peat, covers this even more, though from a slightly different > perspective], and even, toward the end, a bunch of newagey stuff like > OBEs, miracles, UFOs, etc (his theory is that our consciousnesses' effects > on the implicate realm PRODUCE things like UFOs). All very interesting, > but all rather muddied, and I'd like to find a better source of the > physics and cosmology side of it. How brave of you to admit you read such trashy speculations on the extropians list! (I've read two others of his books and have that one. He is a little muddy. Useful to read such generalizers to find out what more credible (in some circles) scientists are up to. Definitely read Herbert's book if you want someone more precise and less muddy. Even strict libertarian objectivist realist materialist reductionists have recommended it. It's a doubleday achor book in case you have to order it. Also, Rupert Sheldrake's Presence of the Past is excellent (Times Books)-- not matter how some may trash him here. Anybody know any good new books on open/autopoiestic systems theory (as opposed to old fashioned homeostatic); or good chapters in new books on chaos theory? > When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! So who is trying to outlaw it?? (Unless you mean polygamous marraige?) cmoore@cap.gwu.edu (and that's all she wrote) ------------------------------ Date: Sun Jun 06 14:52:00 1993 From: james.price@twty.chi.il.us Subject: COSMO: HOLOGRAPHIC UNI TO: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu In a 06-06-93 message to James Price, Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu said: E.> E.>Has anyone "here" ready anything on (or remotely related to) Holograph E.>Universe Theory? I have. I find it QUITE interesting, though (imagin E.>that!) I remain unconvinced. If anyone has any comments on its merits E.>lack there of, response is welcome. "It's stupid" with no explantion E.>WHY, is NOT welcome. If this is an inappropriate topic for the list, E.>free to discuss it by pvt. email. E.> Interesting that you mention it, just yesterday I was thinking about posting something about it. Suggest reading, "The Holographic Universe," by Michael Talbot. I bought it a number days ago and can't put it down. It's incredible! Started underlining interesting and significant points..and almost underlined every line. Went to a Holographic Museum yesterday, here in Chicago. Was more than impressive...was mind boggeling!!! Real to life 3-D, suspended in space! I suppose the real significance is the model it represents for bridging the present gap between "wave theory" with "particle" theory." The missing link! A short quote from pg 54. Considered together, Bohm and Pribram's theories provide a profound new way of looking at the world: "Our brains mathematically construct objective reality by interpreting frequencies that are ultimately projections from another dimension, a deeper order of existence that is beyond both space and time: THE BRAIN IS A HOLOGRAM ENFOLDED IN A HOLOGRAPHIC UNIVERSE." On pg. 50, "Every cell in our body enfolds the entire cosmos. So does every leaf, every raindrop, and every dust mote, which gives new meaning to William Blake's famous poem: To see a World in a Grain of Sand And a Heaven in a Wild Flower, Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand And Eternity in an hour." Also, in the Winter 92 issue of MINDFIELD, a quarterly source journal for consciousness, published an article titled, "Synchronicity in the House of Physics." A partial list of subjects discussed include: * The Unbroken Process (seemingly unrelated events which are woven together to form a continuous world fabric). * Microworld Synchronicity (The wholeness suggested by synchronicity lies in meaningful connections of events isolated in time and space; in spite of their separation, they seem to be linked together. * The Holographic Order (The modern physics worldview that is most empathetic with synchronicity is the holographic order now being developed by Bohm. Bohm envisions the cosmos as a hologram. His vision is radically Holistic, allowing for the creation of separate but correlated events beyond the bounds of causality. and other related subjects... These articles and findings are especially exciting to myself..as they represent an "aspect of oneness" which I have been aware of for almost twenty years... when I wrote, "The Universe is the Inside of Man Looking Out." Perhaps a little corney...but, something to share with you_all. The Delhi Lama walks into a Burger King and says, "Make me one.. with everything." :-) jim price --- ~ WinQwk 2.0b#872 ~ 20/20 BBS Chicago james.price@twty.chi.il.us ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1993 18:58:48 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: COSMO: Herbert, Sheldrake, Bohm, etc etc. > represented as a single wave. Whether this wholeness of representation is > matched by a wholeness of being is a question that was posed by certain > thoughtful physicists, especiall Erwin Schrodinger and David Bohm." Ah so...OK guess I will look for this fellow's stuff, if it IS an extension of Bohm. I have some of Bohm's stuff, but well it was written some time ago, and I just want to see what's been done with it SINCE then. > How brave of you to admit you read such trashy speculations on > the extropians list! (I've read two others of his books and have > that one. He is a little muddy. Useful to read such generalizers to find > out what more credible (in some circles) scientists are up to. Definitely Exactly. The only reason I put up with material like this, and Gleick's dreadful chaos book, is because they give references and pointers to the original source material. Most of it I can't find around here, not without ordering it, and small-press-run academic books sometimes cost over $80 each. I was hoping someone could recommend a few more, and if any are outright garbage in their opinions, warn me away from some. As for my "bravery", well I hardly consider it dangerous to admit to reading something, in the hopes of getting something out of it. Hell even reading the Bible can be enlightening. Know thine enemies and all that. >:) Now if anyone doesn't care for what I read and wishes to flame me for my explorations, oh well. That's THEIR problem, and I have the fastest delete finger in the West! As for Sheldrake, I'd love to hear some CALM criticism, in very specific terms, of what seems to be the problem(s) with his theorizing. Sure it is far fetched, but I get the feeling many here think it is DEAD WRONG. Let's have it! > Anybody know any good new books on open/autopoiestic systems theory (as > opposed to old fashioned homeostatic); or good chapters in new books on > chaos theory? Not I. The first I know nada about, the second, well...I have yet to see an recent chaos/fractal books that were anything but rehash. Seems all the good stuff's already been published. Prigogine's work isn't bad, if you need something to read, but it's already a little old. When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! > > So who is trying to outlaw it?? (Unless you mean polygamous marraige?) Just making some points, mainly because I am sick to death of the "When [x] is outlawed only outlaws will [have|be] [x]" meme; it's really been worked to death. Anyway, unless I see some general list interest in discussing Bohm and/or Sheldrake, I'll leave it alone, or do it by pvt. mail henceforth. -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1993 19:01:12 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: GUNS: summary of article - repost policy > Pretty funny article. Mind if I forward it to ... Ah, well if anyone really wants to you are free to forward, archive, repost, etc, that article summary all you want to anywhere anyhow, as long as I am credited. Forgot to add an X-reposting-policy line to the headers. Gahhh -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1993 22:57:56 -0400 (EDT) From: Harry Shapiro Subject: Diet: Vegan is EC I have been converting myself to a vegan diet for many years. I guess about 6 or 7. (I still eat some meat, fish, dairy. <10% ) Recent articles in Vegetarian Time and Vegetarian Journal have convinced me that at least 90% of what I eat should be Vegan (vegan = no meat, poultry, fish, dairy products; i.e., no animal products). Resent articles talk about reduced cancer rates and things like that. It just id too rational not to. If one wants to extend ones life span, a Vegan diet seems to be about the most effective single change one can make. /Hawk -- Harry Shapiro habs@panix.com List Administrator of the Extropy Institute Mailing List Private Communication for the Extropian Community since 1991 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 93 20:34:04 PDT From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: SF: Novel about Wormholes, Aliens, and Time Travel In view of the recent interest in the Mike Price and Robin Hanson speculations about cosmic wormholes, exotic matter, aliens, and time travel, a book I just saw today is timely (no pun intended): "Timelike Infinity," Stephen Baxter, May 1993. I only read the cover blurbs and about 20 pages picked at random. It didn't grab my interest the way Vinge, for example, does...too many cardboard characters expounding to each other about exotic matter, wormhole gates, aliens, Schrodinger's cat, and so on. There was a striking plot parallel to Mike and Robin's idea of dragging wormholes around: the oppressed Earthlings (conquered by the evil Qax race) had earlier sent out the mouth of a wormhole, created with a 4 km across tetrahedron invented by "Michael Poole" (coincidence?) that uses exotic matter to hold it open. They drag this "line" (attached to another mouth back near Earth) out for 1500 light years (or somesuch...I may have the details slightly wrong from my quick perusal) and then drag it back to the Earth region. Apparently the Earth gate has been destroyed and so some really bizarre stuff begins to happen, including time travel back 1500 years (presumably when the Earth side existed?). I guess Baxter, who wrote "Raft" a couple of years back, must've read the Matt Visser papers. No mention of "empire time" per se (natch), but the basic premise seems similar. And the "Michael Poole" name is eerie. Hope someone appreciates this "heads up" on a new book. -Tim -- .......................................................................... Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: PGP and MailSafe available. Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 93 23:18:56 EST From: mike@highlite.gotham.COM (Mike Wiik) Subject: Fermi paradox solved bio weapons > If it is not possible to build active shields > then it is not possible to prevent someone from building > a dangerous replicator which could destroy the civilization. Which civilization did you have in mind? Perhaps space aliens define civilization as "intelligent races which survive their nanoreplicator phase." I'd wager that in the next 6 months, no one on this planet is going to build a dangerous replicator and menace civilization. The tone I'm getting from this and other messages is that if a dangerous replicator can be built, it would have already been built and the universe would be eaten up. I think there's numerous alternatives... -Mike | o==== . : ... : : . |Mail Me Neat Stuff->POB 3703 Arlington VA 22203 --@-- . o o o ... O -O- o o : | mike@highlite.gotham.com | ... : : |----------------------------------------------- mEssAGE fRoM sPAcE ARt stUdiOs |Man:TheMissingLinkBetweenApes&HigherIntelligence ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1993 21:36:29 -0700 From: D Anton Sherwood Subject: diversified portfolio? One of the co-producers, if that's the word I want ("Presented by ... in association with") of the movie "Falling Down" is -- Alcor Films. (I walked out a few minutes later -- "Falling Down" was on a bill with "Groundhog Day".) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1993 21:37:13 -0700 From: D Anton Sherwood Subject: Trouble brewing Gee, if they take away free e-mail over NSFnet, someone might do something silly like set up a competing provider. *\\* Anton Ubi scriptum? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 06 Jun 93 20:27:22 GMT From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Subject: Fermi paradox solved bio weapons Jim Stevenson: > Fermi paradox solved by biological weapons. > If it is possible to build active shields > then it is possible for the builder of the shield > to limit VN machines. Fair enough. But you'd have to develop the active shield before VN technology (and you only need one VN to set the universe alight, but an awful large number of shield 'unit' to put the flames out). Once the genie's out the bottle, it ain't going back... Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AS member (21/3/93) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 06:34:11 GMT From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Subject: HUMOUR: Fermi & the xenozoics > Stanton McCandlish: [...] > Anyway, its just a fun idea [..] I don't buy the abductions or > the crop circles Last I heard the hoaxers that started the crop circles had 'come out' and confessed it was just a drunken lark, demonstrated their method - but the true believers won't listen :-), insisting that aliens must be repsonsible.... The thing that sparked my interest about the cattle mutilations (about which I know nothing) is that in Southern England there is currently a wave of horse mutilations/rape/buggery going on. These aliens have pretty diverse tastes! Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AS member (21/3/93) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 07:18:25 GMT From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Subject: SF: Fact about Wormholes, Aliens and Time Travel My thanks to Tim May for yet more interesting pointers. For those bored with novels check out Analog July 1993 for an article by Dr Thomas Donaldson: "The Holes in Space-Time". It, too, does not contain any mention of empire-time (I suspect the work predates the latest Visser work) but is a good article on the subject generally. [Dr Thomas Donaldson recently got media attention by fighting for the 'right to die' - or in his case, get cryonically suspended before a brain tumour permanently destroys his mind. His tumour seems to have temporarily stablilised.] Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AS member (21/3/93) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 07:33:16 EDT From: clayb@cellar.org Subject: Diet: Vegan is EC Harry Shapiro writes: > Recent articles in Vegetarian Time and Vegetarian Journal have > convinced me that at least 90% of what I eat should be Vegan (vegan = > no meat, poultry, fish, dairy products; i.e., no animal products). Why dairy products? I'm curious to know what evidence there is that low-fat dairy products are harmful. For that matter, I wonder if, say, 90% of the benefit of vegetarianism can be garnered by eliminating beef and the like (such as lamb) and consuming a fairly low-fat diet, high-carb diet. Why stop eating low-fat fish? > Resent articles talk about reduced cancer rates and things like > that. It just id too rational not to. If one wants to extend ones > life span, a Vegan diet seems to be about the most effective single > change one can make. I wonder how much more beneficial is a strict vegan diet versus a possibly more palatable vegetarian, or mostly vegetarian diet. Clay ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jun 93 12:38:38 GMT From: whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk (Russell Earl Whitaker) Subject: FWD: UK communications mailing lists (2 of 3, anyway) The first 2 mailing lists below look interesting to me. I'm subscribing today, not having seen them before. -Russell This article was forwarded to you by whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk (Russell Earl Whitaker): --------------------------------- cut here ----------------------------- Newsgroups: demon.local Path: eternity.demon.co.uk!demon!orbital.demon.co.uk!steveh From: steveh@orbital.demon.co.uk (Stephen Hebditch) Subject: *** 3 Mailing Lists Message-ID: <1993Jun6.231117.1196@orbital.demon.co.uk> Organization: TQM Communications, London, UK Date: Sun, 6 Jun 1993 23:11:17 GMT The TQM Communications list server is home to three mailing lists you might be interested in. amfm The AM/FM Online Edition is a monthly compilation of news stories from the UK radio industry. satnews Satnews is a bi-weekly news report covering events in the satellite television industry worldwide. uk-dance UK Dance is the trendiest mailing list on the Internet, covering all aspects of dance music culture in the UK: clubs, raves, record shops, radio, new releases and anything else to do with the underground dance music scene. To subscribe to one of these mailing lists, write to listserv@orbital.demon.co.uk With a message whose body starts with the line subscribe e.g. subscribe uk-dance Phil Hartnoll You can stick what you like in the subject as the listserver will ignore it. You will receive back a message confirming your subscription and details of how to unsubscribe. -- Stephen Hebditch TQM Communications steveh@orbital.demon.co.uk +44 836 825962 --------------------------------- cut here ----------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jun 93 07:00:12 -0700 From: Jim Stevenson Subject: Fermi paradox after nanotech Of course I meant after nanotech. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jun 93 9:15:35 CDT From: derek@cs.wisc.edu (Derek Zahn) Subject: COMP: bits into long term memory Mike Price: > Are eidetic images being stored in long-term memory? If not, then > there's no contradiction. Some of the examples Derek and others quoted > involved tests where the eidetic recalled an image next day or so. > Could they recall images after months? (Perhaps Derek's already covered > this point and I missed it.) The source I read did not go into detail, but did imply that there were time limits (implied by a statement that eidetikers who could "hold" the image for a day were rarer than those who could do so for less time). Note that the images were stored _prior_ to stereo fusion, which is not where the usual ideas of "long term memory" apply. > > Second, Landauer tested his subject's memory of only the things he was > > interested in. He did not ask them if they remember the position in > > which they were seated ... > > A good point. Though difficult to imagine that this would do more than, > say, double the rate. I disagree, on several counts. First, there is a LOT of stuff going on that could be remembered. What font was the text of the test in? How was the text arranged on the page? Was there a blob of gunk of the page? What shape was it? What color was the page/text/room/chair? What was the subject thinking about? What could be seen out the window? Maybe the environment was so severely restricted that some questions of this type are not relevant, but then it's hardly fair to generalize to normal situations! Second, memory to me includes all sorts of little changes in behavioral tendencies -- many of which are subconscious... perhaps a particularly effective angle for cracking a knuckle (ew!) gets remembered; skill in reading text or sitting still or whatever gets incremented slightly, and so on. These things are difficult to measure but are certainly important if we're trying to apply these results to computational requirements or capacities of humans. derek hmm... if our input rate is 1-2 bits/sec, I wonder what our output rate is, and how many times this implies we "repeat ourselves"... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jun 93 9:22:25 CDT From: derek@cs.wisc.edu (Derek Zahn) Subject: COMP: bits into long term memory Another fun (if flawed) capacity argument that I think I've seen Doug Lenat make is the following: If a skilled "20-questions" player can get the answeri most of the time, then the size of the societally-common "object" knowledge is about 2^20 or one million "objects". derek one in a million ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jun 93 9:41:56 CDT From: derek@cs.wisc.edu (Derek Zahn) Subject: BRAIN: obscure speculation Paul Cisek: > I've promised to post some of my reasons for doubting the assumptions upon > which much of the speculation here, and much serious research, is based. > Here's a first attempt, but bear with me - this is a difficult issue. I'll bear with you, but I will also act as foil to help you sharpen your point. > What is the function of the nervous system? Careful, Paul! That's a dangerous way to start! What is the 'function' of Paul Cisek? > I'd rather describe it as an extension of the homeostatic processes > of the body into the domain external to the organism. Hmm. You've lost me already! 'Homeostasis' is the active maintenance of an equilibrium state. It's easy to see why the 'function' of the liver can be seen that way, where the equilibrium state is "alive" (or, more specifically, certain concentrations of substances in the blood), but it's not clear to me what this means when we include the environment. What is the equilibrium state being maintained by my diligent li'l neurons in the system "me + my environment"? >The information-theoretic and computer science metaphors are accurate, and I >suppose even useful. But my point is that they provide little insight into the >nature of what they are describing. What aspects of that "nature" do you feel require insight? In what way can't the "computer and information theory" metaphor account for those aspects by treating 'internal' system aspects as input? > The study of the mind should not limit itself to any particular viewpoint. > Computer science, information theory, mathematics, psychology, psychophysics, > neurobiology, neurophysiology, evolutionary theory, embryology, ethology, and > philosophy are each inadequate. We can only hope that their union is enough Agreed, but again -- enough for what? derek agreeing with others that speculation mode can be really fruitful ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jun 93 09:53:27 CDT From: eder@hsvaic.boeing.com (Dani Eder) Subject: SPACE: Fermi paradox, etc. Sub-Subject: Wealth required to colonize space. Mr. McCluskey speculates that Bill Gates is wealthy enough to retire to the asteroid belt if he wanted to. I would like to comment further. Mr. Gates has a worth based on his Microsoft stock of around $7 billion. The stock of the Boeing Company is worth around $10-12 billion. So, in theory Mr. Gates could gain 50+% control of Boeing and then direct Boeing to build him a retirement home in the asteroid belt. In my opinion as a Boeing employee, we have more then enough capability to accomplish this task. In addition, the wealth required to colonize space is not a constant. As knowledge and technology improves, the captial required to colonize space goes down. In my opinion as a space development researcher, a useful colonization of space can be done with a starting capital of a few hundred million dollars today, only using the income from that capital. In the not to distant future, I expect it to be a home hobbyist activity. Dani Eder ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jun 93 10:08:50 CDT From: derek@cs.wisc.edu (Derek Zahn) Subject: BRAIN: obscure speculation Nick Szabo: > I have doubts about neural models that > abstract out the role of hormones and neurochemicals; I suspect they > are leaving out important details. With all this anti-appeal-to-the-literature sentiment about, I hesitate to point, but... A while ago I made some remarks about a researcher looking at worm nervous systems. I have since found a paper describing that work: Anthony Stretton, et al. Motor Behavior and Motor Nervous System Function in the Nematode Ascaris Suum. Journal of Parasitology 78(2), 1992, p 206-214. The nervous system of this worm is a topologically-consistent network of 298 neurons. 100 of these comprise the motor nervous system, concentrated in dorsal and ventral nerve cords. These researchers are studying its locomotory behavior. Without going into detail, I quote a passage: "...recent work on the nervous system of Ascaris suum strongly suggests that even when a great deal of physiological information about the neurons and their synapses has been added, it is still not enough. At least part of the reason for this is that there is great chemical complexity in the intercellular signaling systems used by the nervous system. The nervous system of A suum is anatomically simple, but it is chemically complex." > I prefer to call > it an expansion process: a short, dense, incompressible > encoding being computationally expanded into a long, repetitive > information structure. My rather desultory and lethargic thesis work involves encoding parallel processing networks as the result of such a developmental mechanism -- for reasons of natural expression and efficient search. In terms of search, I am currently using LISP S-expressions as programs that generate networks of various kinds of processing units. Searching the space of such programs (and thus such networks) with Genetic Programming has the advantages that structural and thus functional network motifs are schemata and are operated on directly by selection mechanisms, and changes to a "genome" have effects of varying magnitude on the resulting networks. This kind of range of "mutation sizes" has definite benefits when searching the rugged fitness landscapes characteristic of complex problems. Because small changes in networks of simple components tend to have small effects on network behavior -- thus smoothing the fitness landscape a bit -- it seems that genetic search of developmental parallel processing networks makes as much sense (and perhaps more) as straight GP, which can suffer from the "mesa phenomenon". It would be kind of fun to apply those techniques to "developmental autocatalytic networks" in the search for effective metabolisms. derek ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1993 11:41:05 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: Trouble brewing (fwd) X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission hammar@cs.unm.edu says: > Hi. > The chairman fo the CS department just forwarded this to everyone here > and I thought most of you would be interested also. This is complete bullshit. Where did it come from? .pm > > moret@cs.unm.edu wrote: > >From the AAAA mailing list (UNM administrators). I suggest that each of us > >send his/her own mail message regarding the Internet. The electronic > >addresses below are valid---I checked them. > > > >> Most of you are probably aware of a plan to limit free use of > >> INTERNET to "scientists" transmitting huge files and to start > >> charging for e-mail. Apparently, this is the result of private > >> telecommunications interests putting pressure on the National > >> Science Foundation. > >> > >> If this plan is realized, it will mean that the majority of the > >> approximately 15 million users of INTERNET will be cut off. > >> Sadly, this is occurring just when the potential of this network > >> was starting to be realized. > >> > >> Something must be DONE. We can not let private interests deprive > >> us of access to INTERNET. > >> > >> I suggest that all concerned users register their protest/concern > >> directly with Clinton and Gore via e-mail. Their e-mail address > >> have recently been posted and they are: > >> > >> Clinton= PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.GOV > >> Gore = VICE.PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.GOV > >> > >> In addition, I also suggest that we identify the office in the > >> NSF which is responsible for INTERNET and register electronic > >> protests with them. > >> > >> Any help or suggestions would be appreciated, especially in > >> locating the e-mail address for the office in the NSF. > >> > >> ********************************************************************** > >> * Carl H.A. Dassbach BITNET: DASSBACH@MTUS5 * > >> * Dept. of Social Sciences INTERNET: DASSBACH@MTUS5.CTS.MTU.EDU * > >> * Michigan Technological Univ. PHONE: (906)487-2115 * > >> * Houghton, MI 49931 FAX: (906)487-2468 * > >> * U.S.A. * > >> ********************************************************************** > >> > > Neil Hammar > hammar@unmvax.cs.unm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1993 10:00:36 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: Diet: Vegan is EC Quoth Harry Shapiro, verily I saith unto thee: > > Recent articles in Vegetarian Time and Vegetarian Journal have > convinced me that at least 90% of what I eat should be Vegan (vegan = > no meat, poultry, fish, dairy products; i.e., no animal products). Or even honey, at least to the vegans I know. Nor anything with animal products, which includes most amino acid supplements. :( > Resent articles talk about reduced cancer rates and things like > that. It just id too rational not to. If one wants to extend ones > life span, a Vegan diet seems to be about the most effective single > change one can make. I'd tend to disagree. A hardcore suplements program, on top of a good diet would seem to do much more for you. BUT if you can be vegetarian, and not lose too much weight (I tried once, lost 3 lbs. in less than a week. And at 6' or so, and 128 lbs, I DON'T need to be losing any weight), and the health claims are true (health mags are notorious for bogus "research"), and you combine that with vites & other antioxidants and Good Things, you might have a hell of a regimen. My main problem with vegetarianism is that the time needed to eat well increases, since more care must be taken to find food that has sufficient protein, and in my own case I found that general food preparation time increased. Time that I don't want to spend on cooking. Anyway, good luck with it, let us know how it works out! And if you find more research on these health benefits, that support what you've found, some pointers would be nice. The time issue reminds me: Is anything being done to reduce or elminate SLEEP? It irks me mightly to spend 1/3 of my time sleeping. I have thought of trying to gradually reduce the amount of time I spend sleeping so that it is down from 8 to 4 or so hours (perhaps over 6 months or so). SO, has anyone on the list tried this? Does it work? Do you lose any effectiveness or concentration or energy? -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Jun 1993 12:09:17 -0400 From: "Perry E. Metzger" Subject: Fermi paradox solved bio weapons X-Reposting-Policy: redistribute only with permission Jim Stevenson says: > Fermi paradox solved by biological weapons. > If it is possible to build active shields > then it is possible for the builder of the shield to limit VN machines. Let me get this straight. We'd assume that the first civilization to arise would encounter active shields all through the universe that would stop their Von Neuman machines. Yup, makes perfect sense to me. .pm ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1993 10:23:48 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: HUMOUR: Cropcircles, horse buggery and Illuminati Disease! Quoth Michael Clive Price, verily I saith unto thee: > > > Stanton McCandlish: > [...] > > Anyway, its just a fun idea [..] I don't buy the abductions or > > the crop circles > > Last I heard the hoaxers that started the crop circles had 'come out' > and confessed it was just a drunken lark, demonstrated their method - > but the true believers won't listen :-), insisting that aliens must be > repsonsible.... Heh. I've read about them, and most of what I've read suggests that it's a meta-hoax. They are hoaxing us that they are the hoaxers. The method they use does NOT produce the kinds of cropcirlces people are finding (including damn-near perfect Mandelbrot sets of BIG proportions, and other things that would require very complicated methods of measurement and planning, which the 2 blokes don't mention doing. Add to that reports that the plant material in crop circles is altered is some rather odd ways... I don't buy it. Of course the true believers don't either, but I'd hardly rely on them for analysis. Personally I write the circles off as a 100% unknown. I don't buy the aliens thing, but something a bit more complex than Tom and Jerry scraping a 2x4 along is at work here. > The thing that sparked my interest about the cattle mutilations (about > which I know nothing) is that in Southern England there is currently a > wave of horse mutilations/rape/buggery going on. > These aliens have pretty diverse tastes! That's pretty wild. Maybe they are like the Roman's of Caligula's time, real jaded. >:) Anyway, is there much in common between the UK WierdStuff and the US cattle mutilations? Other strange things afoot: Up in northern New Mexico, people are being struck down by some mysterious disease. Symptoms start out a bit like flu, and result in death sometimes within a few hours. No parasites, virii or bacteria have been found to cause it. Conspiracy theorists are already claiming the govt is doing more biological warfare experiments on US citizens... Maybe it's a mad replicator? >;) -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 Issue #0304 ****************************************