From extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Sun Jun 6 07:27:25 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA27973; Sun, 6 Jun 93 07:27:24 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA03687; Sun, 6 Jun 93 07:27:21 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu (5.65/4.0) id ; Sun, 6 Jun 93 10:23:39 -0400 Message-Id: <9306061423.AA00766@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: ExI-Daily@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Sun, 6 Jun 93 10:23:19 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <9306061423.AA00755@wookumz.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Original-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu From: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Extropians Digest V93 #0301 X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on June 6, 373 P.N.O. [14:23:38 UTC] Reply-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: OR Extropians Digest Sun, 6 Jun 93 Volume 93 : Issue 0301 Today's Topics: "Nolan Chart" and Founder of Libertarian Party [1 msgs] AUCTION: "There ain't no rules in a knife fight..." [1 msgs] BADNEWS: NitV is DOWN (temporarily) [1 msgs] BRAIN: obscure speculation [1 msgs] COMP: bits into long term memory [1 msgs] COSMO: Nick Herbert's 8 Quantum Realities [2 msgs] DAK [1 msgs] Fermi paradox solved bio weapons [1 msgs] Fermi paradox, solved. [1 msgs] GUNS: summary of article [1 msgs] HUMOUR: Fermi & the xenozoics [1 msgs] Looking for chemical engineers, etc. [1 msgs] META: Oops! (SPACE...POLL) [1 msgs] SPACE: Primordial Replicator Soup? (POLL) [2 msgs] Temporary good-bye [1 msgs] Trouble brewing (fwd) [1 msgs] US NEWS & WRLD RPT ON WACO GUNS [1 msgs] WHIMSY: COSMO: Quantum as necessaey illogic? [1 msgs] Administrivia: This is the digested version of the Extropian mailing list. Please remember that this list is private; messages must not be forwarded without their author's permission. To send mail to the list/digest, address your posts to: extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu To send add/drop requests for this digest, address your post to: exi-daily-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu To make a formal complaint or an administrative request, address your posts to: extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu If your mail reader is operating correctly, replies to this message will be automatically addressed to the entire list [extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu] - please avoid long quotes! The Extropian mailing list is brought to you by the Extropy Institute, through hardware, generously provided, by the Free Software Foundation - neither is responsible for its content. Forward, Onward, Outward - Harry Shapiro (habs) List Administrator. Approximate Size: 50995 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 10:41:06 -0800 (PDT) From: phoenix@ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien) Subject: SPACE: Primordial Replicator Soup? (POLL) ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Optional poll: (please email direct to mike@highlite.gotham.com) Check one: [ ] I would like to have my brain sucked out and join the local godmachine immediately. All extropian list members get a Jupiter-size brain in exchange. [ ] Humans were meant to struggle, claw our way to the top. Fighting and sweating and dying and farting and bleeding. I'll build my own Jupiter-size brain, thank you. [X] You expect me to trust some random god-machine to preserve my personality? Hell, why should I trust ours? I'll build my own Jupiter-size brain, thank you. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -- ->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>{Phoenix<>Damien R. Sullivan<> X-) Kiljoy}<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<- || 6x9=42 | AIXELSYD | 1374245896=4 | Libertarian Dictatorship! || || Honk if you're American and have heard of Steeleye Span... || -==========================================================================- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 12:18:14 -0700 (PDT) From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) Subject: BRAIN: obscure speculation I'm glad to see Paul Cisek go into "speculation mode". I've always found this list more delightful when folks are out on the edge posting their own ideas, instead of just quoting various authorities. This is not to disparage authority, just that I learn the conventional stuff by going to the bookstore or university, I don't need this list for that. I'm intrigued by Paul's view of the nervous system as a homeostatic process. The basis of biological homeostasis is metabolism, the network of chemical reactions that keeps us alive and serves to propagate our genes. I suggest we can take this view further by determining how nervous systems interacts with metabolisms. For example, I have doubts about neural models that abstract out the role of hormones and neurochemicals; I suspect they are leaving out important details. We can relate metabolism to the computational/informational model by give metabolites themselves an information value. It's easy to measure the information content of a human genome, but what's the information content of, for example, an enzyme? Obviously a function of its amino acid sequence, but the "heat-shock" proteins, etc. that helped fold that enzyme add to its information content. Going even further, the metabolites, the most basic biochemicals and their chemical properties, have information value. There has been some preliminary work in "computational metabolisms", see _Artificial Life II_. The genome can be seen as an extreme compression of the information needed to construct a homeostatic metabolism, with enzymes a firt-order expansion, and the rest of the metabolism a second-order expansion. I disagree that the notion of a "plan" or "guiding motivation" for this expansion, or embryology, is useless. Even Paul talks about the "function" of the nervous system, and function implies a purpose. Homeostasis itself involves keeping a function unperturbed in the face of environmental variation. Likewise, the concepts of decoding, compression, and expansion imply mechanism, not conscious purpose, even if they at times look quite purposive. "Plan" and "motivation" are just a shorthand for the tendency of evolution to select for purposive-looking structures and behaviors, namely those best at propagating the metabolism-encoding genes. The very non-linear embryological process has been abstractly modelled by Aristid Lindemayer's L-systems. Very good versions of cell differentiation, tree branching patterns, etc. can be produced by L-systems. So I would say that the view of embryology as a decoding process is quite enlightening. I prefer to call it an expansion process: a short, dense, incompressible encoding being computationally expanded into a long, repetitive information structure. In the process the information inherent in the details of chemical properties plays a major role, but not a random role. The embryological process is very homeostatic, it returns to the same end structure, the expansion of the genetic code, under a wide variety of environmental perturbations. As a convenient shorthand, it can be seen as constructing a desired structure or fulfilling a function. Nick Szabo szabo@techbook.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 12:39:12 -0800 (PDT) From: phoenix@ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien) Subject: META: Oops! (SPACE...POLL) My apologies. I got confused by my mailer and didn't realize that my reply was going to the entire list. Again, sorry! -- ->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>{Phoenix<>Damien R. Sullivan<> X-) Kiljoy}<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<- || 6x9=42 | AIXELSYD | 1374245896=4 | Libertarian Dictatorship! || || Honk if you're American and have heard of Steeleye Span... || -==========================================================================- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 93 14:50:15 MDT From: hammar@cs.unm.edu Subject: Trouble brewing (fwd) Hi. The chairman fo the CS department just forwarded this to everyone here and I thought most of you would be interested also. moret@cs.unm.edu wrote: >From the AAAA mailing list (UNM administrators). I suggest that each of us >send his/her own mail message regarding the Internet. The electronic >addresses below are valid---I checked them. > >> Most of you are probably aware of a plan to limit free use of >> INTERNET to "scientists" transmitting huge files and to start >> charging for e-mail. Apparently, this is the result of private >> telecommunications interests putting pressure on the National >> Science Foundation. >> >> If this plan is realized, it will mean that the majority of the >> approximately 15 million users of INTERNET will be cut off. >> Sadly, this is occurring just when the potential of this network >> was starting to be realized. >> >> Something must be DONE. We can not let private interests deprive >> us of access to INTERNET. >> >> I suggest that all concerned users register their protest/concern >> directly with Clinton and Gore via e-mail. Their e-mail address >> have recently been posted and they are: >> >> Clinton= PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.GOV >> Gore = VICE.PRESIDENT@WHITEHOUSE.GOV >> >> In addition, I also suggest that we identify the office in the >> NSF which is responsible for INTERNET and register electronic >> protests with them. >> >> Any help or suggestions would be appreciated, especially in >> locating the e-mail address for the office in the NSF. >> >> ********************************************************************** >> * Carl H.A. Dassbach BITNET: DASSBACH@MTUS5 * >> * Dept. of Social Sciences INTERNET: DASSBACH@MTUS5.CTS.MTU.EDU * >> * Michigan Technological Univ. PHONE: (906)487-2115 * >> * Houghton, MI 49931 FAX: (906)487-2468 * >> * U.S.A. * >> ********************************************************************** >> Neil Hammar hammar@unmvax.cs.unm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 05 Jun 93 22:46:03 GMT From: price@price.demon.co.uk (Michael Clive Price) Subject: COMP: bits into long term memory Echoing Nick Szabo I'm pleased to see Paul Cisek in speculation mode. I too find the list more instructive when people are running free and loose with ideas (within the trammels of reason and logic, of course). I'll return the favour by adding some of my speculation: > First, I want to point out that the value of 1-2 bits/sec completely > contradicts the findings of Bela Julesz summarized by Derek Zahn. Are eidetic images being stored in long-term memory? If not, then there's no contradiction. Some of the examples Derek and others quoted involved tests where the eidetic recalled an image next day or so. Could they recall images after months? (Perhaps Derek's already covered this point and I missed it.) Speaking to an ex-eidetic (she was an eidetic child) I am told that the images fade and blur after a while. To cram for an exam would best be done the might before or same day. > Second, Landauer tested his subject's memory of only the things he was > interested in. He did not ask them if they remember the position in > which they were seated when they looked at the pictures, or what the > shape of the room was, or the color of the table. A good point. Though difficult to imagine that this would do more than, say, double the rate. > -Paul > (Please note that I have changed the prefix of this thread to COMP. > We're not talking about biology here...) ?? Sounds like neurophysiology to me.... And I thought you _didn't_ like the computer metaphor :-) Mike Price price@price.demon.co.uk AS member (21/3/93) PS I don't like the program, storage, processing etc metaphors, either. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 18:13:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Moore Subject: US NEWS & WRLD RPT ON WACO GUNS US News and World Report June 7 1993 reports on HOW DAVID KORESH GOT ALL THOSE GUNS "The arsenal at Ranch Apocalypse was gathered just the way the law allows"-- ie. all the guns were legal! This is the first cataloguing of the number of guns and other munitions I've seen since the fire. THere's only a tiny allusion to the massacre at Waco at the end where they in effect blame it all on NRA type thinking. This apologia for mass murder is (almost not quite) enough to turn a pacifist into a gun nut! (-: cmoore@cap.gwu.edu :-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 16:37:12 -0700 (PDT) From: szabo@techbook.com (Nick Szabo) Subject: Looking for chemical engineers, etc. I'm trying to contact folks who have an interest in cooking up scenarios for space industrialization or colonization, and a reasonably strong background in one or more of the following, or a good general knowledge of most of the following: chemical engineering organic chemistry materials science planetary science (esp. spectroscopy & chemistry, comets) biotechnology (esp. agricultural, waste processing, metabolic engineering) I'm looking to start a special-topic list on comet materials processing, especially in terms of the processing steps needed to create a wide variety of end products. If you or someone you know meets these criteria, I'd love to here from you. Nick Szabo szabo@techbook.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 19:50:55 -0400 (EDT) From: Carol Moore Subject: COSMO: Nick Herbert's 8 Quantum Realities On Fri, 4 Jun 1993, Stanton McCandlish wrote: > Has anyone "here" ready anything on (or remotely related to) Holographic > Universe Theory? I have. I find it QUITE interesting, though (imagine > that!) I remain unconvinced. If anyone has any comments on its merits or > lack there of, response is welcome. > > -- Since someone else has referred in private e-mail to Rick Herbet's book, I thought I'd post the below for what ever comments bubble out of the ether... ........................... In his 1985 Quantum Reality Nick Herbert outlines eight different "Quantum Realities" which could be the quantum physics basis of a more complete new scientific paradigm. I describe them (as best I can understand) in the paragraph below his title/description. #1 There is No Deep Reality (Copenhagen Interpretation, Part I). Entities have no real attributes, but these are created as a result of the interaction of the entity and the observer or measuring device. #2 The World is Created in An Act of Observation (Copenhagen Expanded) Entities attributes are created by interaction of the observer and non-local influences which neither may be aware of. #3 The World is Undivided Wholeness The world is one being where separate entities nevertheless contain parts of all the others. [holographic] #4 The Many Worlds Interpretation Non-locality and the fact that subatomic particles seem to explore possibilities indicate that a multitude of worlds may have been created, but we only experience one of them. #5 Quantum Logic (The world is put together like a non- Boolean lattice) Quantum logic is just the beginning of the theory that is needed to discover the objective nature of reality. #6 Neo Realism (The World is Made of Ordinary Objects) We will yet find a way to explain the world in terms of simple particle/field models. #7 Consciousness Creates Reality Consciousness can influence action at a distance. [I would go further and say that basic organizing principles of reality are akin to consciousness--memory, imagination, will, awareness, drive to actualize] #8 The Duplex Universe Raw quantum reality is merely potentials which are then actualized by the consciousness of the observer into being reality. cmoore@capg.gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 18:05:38 -0700 From: D Anton Sherwood Subject: DAK > Everyone I've talked to about them has had similar problems. I'm > curious, is there anyone on this list who has bought something from > DAK and been satisfied with the deal? I bought, I think, two things from DAK in '83-84: a typewriter (Olivetti) and maybe an ionizer. The ionizer made me, but not my SO, even moodier than usual (maybe we were using it wrong). The typewriter's power cord was loose, so if anything jiggled I'd lose power and the margins would revert to default. *\\* Anton Ubi scriptum? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 19:32:45 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: HUMOUR: Fermi & the xenozoics Quoth Michael Clive Price, verily I saith unto thee: > > Stanton McCandlish: > > > Or the "Trelayne" scenario: the only ones that bother with galactic > > bugs like us are the kids, and treat us much the same way as a kid > > sticking firecrackers down an anthill and pulling the wings off of > > butterflies. Would explain the mutilations and abductions and anal > > sadism, etc. >;) > > I know I *really* shouldn't ask, but would you mind going into a bit > more detail? There's obviously a whole area of 'rural' myth I'm missing > out on here. Also like some *very* strange things going on the UK. You > first, though.. :-) > > Just lowering the tone of the list. Well, the topic is still humour, since I am not too sure I'd take this idea very seriously. But, like I said, what if the only aliens that show up here, really ARE doing cattle mutiliations. If they were juvenile aliens, this could explain such strange things as the mutilations, and the WIERD treatment that (supposed) abductees report. Kids tend to be mean, and do wierd stuff to bugs, and other animals (i.e. painting the dog, knocking eggs out of nests, etc.) I'd hardly demand that one accept the idea that junvenile aliens behave like juvenile human children (particularly since I see too much humanocentrism in many of the discussions so far), but well, WHAT IF. This could even tie in to the crop circles (the UFO equivalent of scratching little pictures in the dirt with a stick on a dull sunday afternoon), or consider the simulation scenario, it could be just a bunch of alien kiddos doing this on their SuperSuperSuperXenoNintendo, and again perhaps they take a perverse delight in monkeying about with things just to see what happens. I don't know what strange things in the UK you refer to. Anyway, its just a fun idea, I repeat that I don't consider any of this to be any sort of theoretical framework. I don't buy the abductions or the crop circles, but what the hell. It's a bit like "What would chairs look like if people's knees bent the other way". -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 21:02:24 -0600 From: twb3@midway.uchicago.edu (Tom Morrow) Subject: Temporary good-bye Friends, I have stopped subscribing to the Extropians list and will probably not sign on again for at least six months. I won't bore you with the reasons why I'm taking this sabbatical, but I assure you that it is *not* because I'm displeased with the list. I miss receiving it already, in fact! I have very much enjoyed associating with such creative, informed, and powerful intelligences. I look forward to rejoining the list's virtual community relatively soon. In the meantime, those of you who want to send me personal email will find me at "T0Morrow@aol.com". Please note that the second character in this address is a *zero*--not the letter "o". Carry on, virtual EXTROverts! T.O. Morrow -- NEW: t0morrow@aol.com Vice President: ExI -- The Extropy Institute Law & Politics Editor: EXTROPY -- Journal of Transhumanist Thought ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 20:08:32 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: BADNEWS: NitV is DOWN (temporarily) DON'T call for PGP toys from my system any time this week, and likely next. The system is DOWN, due to a motherboard video-related problem (among others). Serves me right for buying mailorder, with a 1yr warranty (it's been 1 year and 2 months. Of course.) NitV should be up and running and all the crypto files available again within a couple weeks. Blagh. Of course, what REALLY must've happened is the SS sneaked into my house in the middle of the night and ran a magnet over my BIOS... >;) -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 20:45:10 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: SPACE: Primordial Replicator Soup? (POLL) > Optional poll: (please email direct to mike@highlite.gotham.com) Well of course it's optional. > [X] You expect me to trust some random god-machine to preserve > my personality? Hell, why should I trust ours? I'll build > my own Jupiter-size brain, thank you. That's actually my SECOND pick. The FIRST answer I had was FNORD, but I didn't think that would help this silly survey much. >:) -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 22:11-EDT From: Marc.Ringuette@GS80.SP.CS.CMU.EDU Subject: AUCTION: "There ain't no rules in a knife fight..." In my thinking about the "dollar auction" the only way I can see to come up with a reliable profit, as a bidder, is to form a "bidders coalition" of some kind. I think I see a way to form a successful coalition given that we on Extropians, since we value our reputations, can actually make commitments which we can be trusted to keep. The conditions under which my idea works include: the ability to make a trustable commitment, the ability to communicate before the auction, and the nonexistence of people willing to lose money in order just to screw us. I'm not totally certain that these conditions all hold in this case, but I think they might. --- Here's the kind of coalition I suggest: coalition members toss an n-sided coin. The "winner" bids a penny in the auction, and if anyone else bids, immediately bids the entire amount being auctioned. All members promise (in a trustable way) that they will do this if they win the coin toss. Once such a coalition forms, it is to everyone's advantage to join it and to nobody's advantage to bust it. --- This reminds me of some things I read in Thomas Schelling's book "Choice and Consequence", in which he stresses the negotiating value of making an iron-clad commitment. Often, the person who succeeds in making a commitment first can "win" the negotiations. For instance, if your cost for a widget is $100 and my value is $200, a trade can be made at any price between $100 and $200. If I manage to commit (irreversibly) to paying no more than $110, then your most rational choice is to accept the $110 -- so I win! This seems relevant to the dollar auction in that the first coalition to form is the only profitable one; everyone else must join or give up all hope of profit. Now, an individual can also make such a commitment and grab all hope of profit in the game; but then it's pretty likely that someone will zap him out of spite or some tit-for-tat strategy. My suggested coalition has the advantage of fairness (anyone can join and all members profit equally), rationality, and positive profit. If I believed in such things, I'd call it a Schelling point. --- Comments or improvements? If I get some support and manage to convince myself that the conditions on success are more or less satisfied, I'll start/join such a coalition. My main concern is that in the coming auction, since the amount of money isn't large, the profit motive is probably not the primary concern of many people. Someone may bust the coalition just for fun, or just to give ExI some extra cash. More discussion on the theory of the dollar auction is most welcome. -- Marc Ringuette (mnr@cs.cmu.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 21:51:21 -0800 (PDT) From: phoenix@ugcs.caltech.edu (Damien) Subject: WHIMSY: COSMO: Quantum as necessaey illogic? Just a random thought, probably not very well stated. What if something as large as the universe can have no complete and consistent set of laws, and the seeming paradoxes from quantum mechanics are the break in the framework? Maybe it has to fall apart somewhere, and we're fortunate it's buried so far down, and works so well on top. Ready to be shot down by the better informed... -- ->>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>{Phoenix<>Damien R. Sullivan<> X-) Kiljoy}<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<- || 6x9=42 | AIXELSYD | 1374245896=4 | Libertarian Dictatorship! || || Honk if you're American and have heard of Steeleye Span... || ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 23:11:42 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: GUNS: summary of article Here's a summary of an article that appeared in the "PERSPECTIVE" section/insert of the _Arizona_Republic_, Sun. May 16, '93. Title: It's Time to Raise the Shields Photo: a pathetic wailing housewife-type being helped to "leave the twin towers of the New York World Trade Center after an underground explosion was set off", by a pair of cops. She does not appear to be injured. Nearby article, probably on purpose: an article, almost totally statistically based, of "info" on mania-depression. A sidebar to this is headlined "Mother's 'wild animal' is an angel on medication". Just love it. Author of gun article: A.S. Ross, San Francisco Examiner Quick summary, in order of original material: 3 cases of "religious warfare" in the US since Clinton took office, leaving ~100 deanimated as habs would put it: Trade Center bombing, abortion clinic shooting, Waco. "We" have greeted this with "Outrage. Shock. Blame." We need to "see the bloodletting for what it is: part of a rising tide of extremism that will tear this country apart" unless "we" stop it. Subtitle: Armies of the addled Since there're "dozens" of groups like Koresh's, expect this to happen again [the implication is themthere wierdos with guns gettin' uppity again, not the US Govt. abridging people's rights and slaughtering children again.] The anti-abortionists have "the murderous impulse", and speak more and more in terms of "raising 'spiritual armies' to combat ungodliness". [gotta agree with THAT part at least]. Next there's a complete nonsequitur paragraph which makes 0 sense to me, maybe you'll get it: "And for every violence-prone Muslim arrested, there are many more within the ranks of America's fastest-growing religion, ready and willing to do the bidding of a blind Egyptian cleric, or any number of Mideast-based terrorist organizations, all of whom consider themselves at war with the West and all it's values." Yeehaw, whatever. So, how do "we" protect ourselves from the Xians and Moslems who want to "blow up innocent office workers and allow children to be burned alive?" [ what is "innocent", and why do only office workers qualify? And, well wasn't it the govt that "allowed children to be burned alive"?] "We" need to ask hard questions of the govt agencies "that are meant to protect us. We also might need to look at some of our most cherished constitutional talismans, and at such discredited notions as national loyalty and moral accountablity" if we want to keep "madmen" from blowing our society apart. [I think you can see where this ricketty ship is about to lauch for...] Subtitle: Post facto finger-pointing We've been pointing the finger at the FBI. Quit, and blame it on INS instead. Questions: what happened to Immigration's '90 investigation of Koresh for "recruitment of illegal aliens - including Australian women who served as his sex slaves" which should've shut down Branch David before the FBI and BATF decided to fuck up. [my wording on that part!] INS was just lazy. Author proceeds to describe other aliens that made it to Waco, obviously setting up a "blame it on the illegal aliens" scenario. Next, irrelvant babbling about Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman: "He's the Islamic cleric [favourite word or something? Thesaurus program got corrupted?] who, from his mosque atop a Jersey City toy store [nice touch: "He's threatening our children"], urges his followers to 'hit hard and kill the enemies of God in every spot'". [makes no mention of who or what said enemies are, nor gives any further info on Rahman, or explains what relation it has to the story, which so far is very muddled]. Misc rambles about Rahman's violent followers, who are cab drivers. Or something like that. On to more crud about "the Mideast nationals" [since when is there a nation called Mideast?] in the US Midwest, sending money back home to their fave terrorist org. "How did they get here? And what are they still doing here?" [Duhh...likely by plane, and probably living.] "Some of the answers [presumably to the above questions, which are bogus anyway] reflect an almost criminal complacency on the part of U.S. agencies that didn't think these people were any big deal, despite repeated warnings from Israeli and Egyptian intelligence." [Now on the second page, the title has oh-so-cleverly changed to "Time to raise the shields against the right". Due to lack of capitalization, one doesn't know if this means the right to something, or the "Right Wing".] Subtitle: Another can of worms Rahman helped recruit for the US's efforts to help the Moslem "fundamentalist factions" fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan, and got a green card for his efforts. "Unfortunately, some of his followers decided not to retire and tell war stories. Instead, they got weapons, including explosives." [Ah so...being a "normal citizen" and owning a weapon are mutually exclusive! But of course, what spectacular logic. I will throw out all my weapons immediately, so I can sit around and tell war stories!] Similarly [to this journalist's mind, I guess] Koresh's "arsenal of semiautomatics was given back to him by an obliging Texas state court" after assault charges against him fell apart. Likewise [?!], Michael Griffin, who shot Dr. Gunn [great name!] in the back, at the clinic, obtained his .38 "under the benign gaze" of BATF, who only denied 37 out of 34k gunstore licenses in 91. [this is relevant? Is it perhaps because there was no legal reason to deny the rest of them? Sheesh] Since four BATF agents got shot in Waco, now BATF favours gun control. [Imagine that. Since when has the agency responsible for gun control not favoured gun control? A bit like saying "Now that a cop has been shot, cops are coming out in favour of fighting crime." Give me a break.] "Too late for those four ATF agents who joined the more than 60,000 American residents killed by firearms in the past five years." [don't you just love it? ] "There are 200 million guns floating around this society [where does this figure come from? And what is "this society"? The US? North America? The West? The World?], and if we [there's that "we" again] don't take a serious look at the Second Amendment soon -- a televised national summit hosted by President Clinton would be a start -- we'll see plenty more mini-apocalypses before this decade is out." [I could comment at great length on this part, but the bullshit is thick as brick wall, and I am sure you can all tell what's wrong with the picture.] Next is this inane quote from an "expert" (a religion professor at Wash. U.): "The infection of arms into the American body politic has spread to religion itself. The easy availablility of firearms is paving the way for more and more translations of religious rhetoric into literal, bloody fact." [Oh puh-LEEZ! Guess they should've talked to a history prof, or some other equally unqualified mouthpiece; then maybe they'd've clued to the fact that the populace of the US has been heavily armed, and heavily religious, since day one.] Subtitle: Oddball sects, mad mullahs Anti-abortionists are getting just as bad as religious nuts. [there's a difference?] AA'ists are getting more violent and illegal (big list is given, incl. threats, bombings, etc etc.) Yet, the govt. hasn't done jack shit about it "Since 1980." [what the hell does that date indicate?!] Yes, it's more "government complacency" haunting us. [Get this:] "The mood of these extremists is more dangerous than ever, now that we have a pro-choice president whom they regard as the anti-Christ and against whom they have sworn all-out war. [Think maybe this guy spent too much time at Disneyland or something?] Better yet: "A new-found vigilance on the part of the government would be welcome, but is not enough." Religous leaders [snort] turn away "as the blood tide rises". Pointless BS about how no ministers or popes showed up to condemn the Branch Davidians or the shooter of Gunn. [STILL just love that name!] Rather than complaining about antisemitism, the Arab-Americans should instruct eachother in citizenship (*US* citizenship) since they are so much better off here. "Ah, yes. Allegiance. Loyalty. Concepts that neither government, community leaders nor individuals have done much to foster lately." [back to High School English Essay Writing II for you buddy. And thank the lack-of-god that they HAVEN'T been fostering such malarkey!] Next some silly quote about stabbing America in the back, from one of Rahman's dupes. "Which is precisely what the bombers of the World Trade Center did." Subtitle: Outrageous betrayals Themthere ragheads and gun nuts "transgress the bounds of civic tolerance". [This is great:] "Civil livertarians rightly remind us of the constitutional protections for speech and beliefs and the prices we pay for democracy, no matter how discomforting." [Think he really believe this? Nahhhhh...] Next a dorky quote about putting "beepers" on everyone who enters the country so they can be tracked; this from Verne Jervis of the INS. Society has a right to protect itself [by, of course, giving up the right of individuals to protect themselves!], "especially against those from elsewhere". [more xenophobic drivel, such as:] "Could not membership in a violence-prone,or criminal-led organization be considered grounds for deportation?" [I REALLY like this one. Gives us perfect excuse to deport the ENTIRE govt. of the US!] Just so the author isn't perceived as "anti-foreigner" he warns that the real threat comes from within, especially now that there are more religious nuts and "our polictics become meaner". [Back to 3rd Grade American History, while you're at it.] The _Waco_Tribune_Herald_ got bent out of shape over bales of mail saying that people all over the US were "ready to take up arms alongside Koresh". _WTH_ editor: "Many feel so threatened that they are ready to start an armed revolution". [end quote] "The most frightening were not the dumb rednecks, but the ones who 'sound educated, articulate and reasonable'". [Imagine that! From context it appears that the nested quote there is again from the _WTH_ editor, who is not named] I'll quote the finale in it's entirety: "All of them [the non-rednecks, apparently] ready to blast away, quite literally, at those they believe really run things -- the government, the liberals, the media, the Zionists, the secular humanists [where'd he pull those 2 from?]. An enemies list largely shared by those who shoot abortion doctors, bomb trade centers and set fire to themselves and their children [what utter BULLSHIT!] for the greater glory of God. It's time to put up the shields." --------------- end summary ---------------------------------------------- Well you've had enough of my comments on the matter, so I'll just leave you to mull over what "journalism" like this could do to libertarian causes. -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 23:27:04 -0600 (MDT) From: Stanton McCandlish Subject: COSMO: Nick Herbert's 8 Quantum Realities Nah, the Holographic Universe stuff I have read so far seems to be based on Bohm. The author of the particular work I read lately, _The_Holographic_Unverse_ by Michael Talbot, also tried to integrate Sheldrake, chaos theory, QM, Eastern thought a la _Tao_of_Physics_, Jung's synchronicity [_Synchronicity:_The_Bridge_Between_Matter_and_Mind, F. David Peat, covers this even more, though from a slightly different perspective], and even, toward the end, a bunch of newagey stuff like OBEs, miracles, UFOs, etc (his theory is that our consciousnesses' effects on the implicate realm PRODUCE things like UFOs). All very interesting, but all rather muddied, and I'd like to find a better source of the physics and cosmology side of it. Anyway the Holographic paradigm mentioned in your list of eight Quantum models seems to have nothing in common with the one I've been reading about. -- When marriage is outlawed only outlaws will be inlaws! Stanton McCandlish, SysOp: Noise in the Void DataCenter Library BBS Internet anton@hydra.unm.edu IndraNet: 369:1/1 FidoNet: 1:301/2 Snail: 1811-B Coal Pl. SE, Albuquerque, New Mexico 87108 USA Data phone: +1-505-246-8515 (24hr, 1200-14400 v32bis, N-8-1) Vox phone: +1-505-247-3402 (bps rate varies, depends on if you woke me up...:) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jun 93 23:01:25 -0700 From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: "Nolan Chart" and Founder of Libertarian Party David Nolan, the founder of the Libertarian Party and the inventor of the Nolan Chart (the one with quadrants), was in town today to try out a "Rush Limbaugh"-type radio talk show format on a local radio station. After the show, which I'll summarize below, a bunch of us had pizza and beer with Dave and his wife, Elizabeth. I got to talk to him about Marrou, the 20-year history of the LP, my vote for Hospers in '72 (and my vote for Perot in '92), and on and on for a few hours. Very encouraging! Nolan wants to develop a radio talk show similar in _tone_ to the Rush Limbaugh show, though without the right-wing stridency. Of course, he's been on many a radio show, but has had little experience as a host. KSCO, a local Santa Cruz station owned by a real estate developer (which makes him the Antichrist here in Santa Cruz), offered him a chance to make a demo tape, which he did tonight. He plans to edit this tape down to a "best of" to take to the National Assn. of Broadcasters (or somesuch) meeting in Chicago in a few weeks, attempting to pitch himself as a plausible talk show host. I think he'll do well. If not immediately, then over the next several years. He has a good voice, the right intonations, and a powerful message. It was a call-in show, so of course I called in to mention the Clipper chip, which confirmed Nolan's points about the police state, civil forfeitures, War on Drugs, midnight raids by SWAT teams, WACO, etc. The usual mix of nut cases, articulate lefties, Gaia worshippers (one read a poem about Gaia), conspiracy theorists, libertarians, and other assorted talk show fans called in. Nolan handled them all with ease and grace. I was very impressed. The power of libertarian and extropian ideas is much greater than the mere political process. (In my opinion, the focus for the past 20 years on the political process has hurt the LP, as the ideas are not getting out nearly enough. Thew LP keeps hoping that a Presidential candidate will get the ideas out, but it never seems to happen.) It may be that the best way to ever get libertarian ideas into the political realm will be through talk shows like this. Rush does it, Howard Stern does it....why not Dave Nolan? Who knows, maybe we'll see an articulate, energetic Dave Nolan running on the LP ticket in 2004. (I should mention that Nolan titled his broadcast "The Fourth American Revolution." The first was in 1776, the second was Lincoln and the Civil War, the third was FDR and the New Deal, and the fourth, he feels, will arrive right on schedule in the next dozen years or so.) Dave and his wife also picked Santa Cruz for a vacation spot for a few days. We talked about the movies shot here, especially "The Lost Boys." (Santa Cruz was a nice town before the damn vampires took over....could be a metaphor for too much government.) Another pleasant evening in paradise. -Tim -- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: by arrangement Note: I put time and money into writing this posting. I hope you enjoy it. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 93 06:40:16 -0700 From: Jim Stevenson Subject: Fermi paradox, solved. Reply-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu < 6-6-93.js ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jun 93 06:53:52 -0700 From: Jim Stevenson Subject: Fermi paradox solved bio weapons Fermi paradox solved by biological weapons. If it is possible to build active shields then it is possible for the builder of the shield to limit VN machines. If it is not possible to build active shields then it is not possible to prevent someone from building a dangerous replicator which could destroy the civilization. ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 Issue #0301 ****************************************