From extropians-request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Wed May 5 10:45:31 1993 Return-Path: Received: from usc.edu by chaph.usc.edu (4.1/SMI-4.1+ucs-3.0) id AA07044; Wed, 5 May 93 10:45:26 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: from churchy.gnu.ai.mit.edu by usc.edu (4.1/SMI-3.0DEV3-USC+3.1) id AA28613; Wed, 5 May 93 10:45:22 PDT Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Received: by churchy.gnu.ai.mit.edu (5.65/4.0) id ; Wed, 5 May 93 13:36:29 -0400 Message-Id: <9305051736.AA19346@churchy.gnu.ai.mit.edu> To: ExI-Daily@gnu.ai.mit.edu Date: Wed, 5 May 93 13:35:53 -0400 X-Original-Message-Id: <9305051735.AA19334@churchy.gnu.ai.mit.edu> X-Original-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu From: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: Extropians Digest V93 #0244 X-Extropian-Date: Remailed on May 5, 373 P.N.O. [17:36:27 UTC] Reply-To: Extropians@gnu.ai.mit.edu Errors-To: Extropians-Request@gnu.ai.mit.edu Status: OR Extropians Digest Wed, 5 May 93 Volume 93 : Issue 0244 Today's Topics: A market mechanism for the extropians list [1 msgs] Cryonics FAQ 1: Index [1 msgs] Cryonics FAQ 4: Controversy surrounding Cryonics [1 msgs] Cryonics FAQ 5: Neurosuspension [1 msgs] Cryonics FAQ 6: Suspension Arrangements [1 msgs] Cryonics FAQ 8: Communications [1 msgs] Cryonics FAQ 9: Glossary [1 msgs] Forward: Cryonics FAQ Communications [1 msgs] Forward: Cryonics FAQ Controversy [1 msgs] Forward: Cryonics FAQ Glossary/Credits [1 msgs] Forward: Cryonics FAQ Intro [1 msgs] Forward: Cryonics FAQ Neurosuspension [1 msgs] Forward: Cryonics FAQ Suspension Arrangements [1 msgs] MEETING (Reminder): UK Cryptoprivacy Association) [1 msgs] no subject (file transmission) [6 msgs] Administrivia: This is the digested version of the Extropian mailing list. 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Approximate Size: 54342 bytes. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:35:51 +0200 (MET DST) From: ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de (Garrett Goebel) Subject: Forward: Cryonics FAQ Controversy Forwarded message: >From ggoebel Wed May 5 18:24:36 1993 From: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Message-Id: <9305051624.AA06122@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de> Subject: no subject (file transmission) To: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:24:35 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL3] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 5930 Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers Path: news.uni-freiburg.de!news.belwue.de!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!das-news.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!tsf From: tsf+@cs.cmu.edu (Timothy Freeman) Subject: Cryonics FAQ 4: Controversy surrounding Cryonics Message-ID: Followup-To: sci.cryonics Summary: This posting contains a list of Frequently Asked Questions and their answers about cryonics, the practice of carefully preserving very recently clinically and legally dead people in hopes that they can be revived in the future. It should be read by anyone interested in posting to sci.cryonics and by anyone who finds the prospect of certain death irritating. Sender: news@cs.cmu.edu (Usenet News System) Supersedes: Nntp-Posting-Host: u.ergo.cs.cmu.edu Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon References: Date: Sat, 1 May 1993 07:38:26 GMT Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.Edu Expires: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 07:36:43 GMT Lines: 99 Xref: news.uni-freiburg.de sci.cryonics:1069 news.answers:7875 sci.answers:158 Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part4 Cryonics Frequently Asked Question List Section 4: Controversy surrounding Cryonics Last Modified Mon Apr 26 13:18:34 1993 (You can fetch cryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscad1.att.com or to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n". The index to this FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1".) Copyright 1993 by Tim Freeman. See the end of Section 1 for restrictions on redistribution. 4-1. Why do cryobiologists have such a low opinion of cryonics? How did this start, and how does it continue? Cryobiologists are scientists who study the effects of cold on living systems such as insects, embryos, and organs. Those few who specialize in the cryobiology of organs and larger animals do possess knowledge relevant to the preservation phase of cryonics, although they are seldom familiar with the future repair technologies cryonics depends on. Unfortunately this is a recipe for misunderstanding. Knowing full well all the damage inflicted by today's freezing techniques, and being ignorant of the prospects for repairing it, most cryobiologists believe cryonics cannot work. They view it as an illegitimate pursuit that attracts unwarranted media attention, and that tarnishes the image of their own profession. The resulting hostility toward cryonics is often so great that even cryobiologists sympathetic to cryonics cannot openly state their views without fear of ostracism. 4-2. Who made the statement about reviving a frozen person being similar to reconstructing the cow from hamburger? The cryobiologist Arthur Rowe is responsible for promoting this misrepresentation. Specifically, he says: "Believing cryonics could reanimate somebody who has been frozen is like believing you can turn hamburger back into a cow." The analogy is not valid. Some vertebrates can survive freezing, but no vertebrates can survive grinding. Here is what CRFT said on page A-40: "This is absurd. Cryonics patients are frozen long before most of their cells die or become structurally disorganized. The freezing techniques used in cryonic suspension are based upon hundreds of published studies in which scientists have shown that almost all mammalian cells, including brain cells, can survive freezing and thawing!" As an interesting aside, according to Matthew P Wiener (weemba@sagi.wistar.upenn.edu), sponges can reassemble themselves after being diced up into small pieces. I don't know if they could survive grinding, and I don't know if each piece occupies the same location after dicing as before. 4-3. What was the Dora Kent case? Dora Kent is the mother of Saul Kent, a longtime supporter of cryonics and leader of the Life Extension Foundation. On December 11, 1988, she was suspended (head-only) by Alcor. Although Dora was clinically dead at that time, she was not legally dead due to an administrative oversight. The coroner autopsied the non-suspended portion of Dora's remains. At first the conclusion was that Dora died of pneumonia. Later the coroner retracted this, and on January 7, 1989 the coroner's deputies took all of Alcor's patient care records and attempted to take Dora's head for autopsy. Mike Darwin said that the head was not at Alcor's headquarters and he did not know where it was. Mike Darwin and five other Alcor members were arrested, but when they arrived at the jail the police realized that they had no charges to use against them. On January 12 and 13, the Coroner's deputies, UCLA police, and a SWAT team again entered Alcor's headquarters and removed all computing equipment in sight, all magnetic media including an answering machine tape, and prescription medications used for suspensions. Many items were taken that were not on the warrant. Years of legal wrangling ensued. The final outcome was that the coroner lost the next election, Alcor's equipment was returned but damaged, and all charges against Alcor or Alcor members were eventually defeated or dropped. None of Alcor's patients were thawed. Fortunately, no suspensions needed to be done while the police had custody of Alcor's equipment. ~References: Cryonics 10(12), December 1989, and 9(1), January 1988. 4-4. What about that fellow in the news with the brain tumor? His name is Thomas Donaldson. His tumor is not growing at present, but when and if it begins growing again, it is likely to seriously damage his brain before it kills him. He went to court to petition for the right to be suspended before legal death. The case has been appealed several times. He lost the most recent appeal, as of July 16, 1992. The decisions of the judges are available from Alcor. -- C. Garrett Goebel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:41:36 +0200 (MET DST) From: ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de (Garrett Goebel) Subject: Forward: Cryonics FAQ Glossary/Credits Forwarded message: >From ggoebel Wed May 5 18:24:56 1993 From: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Message-Id: <9305051624.AA06177@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de> Subject: no subject (file transmission) To: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:24:56 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL3] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 5385 Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers Path: news.uni-freiburg.de!news.belwue.de!ira.uka.de!math.fu-berlin.de!nigel.msen.com!sdd.hp.com!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!swrinde!emory!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!darwin.sura.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!pacific.mps.ohio-state.edu!cis.ohio-state.edu!news.sei.cmu.edu!magnesium.club.cc.cmu.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!tsf From: tsf+@cs.cmu.edu (Timothy Freeman) Subject: Cryonics FAQ 9: Glossary Message-ID: Followup-To: sci.cryonics Summary: This posting contains a list of Frequently Asked Questions and their answers about cryonics, the practice of carefully preserving very recently clinically and legally dead people in hopes that they can be revived in the future. It should be read by anyone interested in posting to sci.cryonics and by anyone who finds the prospect of certain death irritating. Sender: news@cs.cmu.edu (Usenet News System) Supersedes: Nntp-Posting-Host: u.ergo.cs.cmu.edu Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon References: Date: Sat, 1 May 1993 07:40:09 GMT Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.Edu Expires: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 07:36:43 GMT Lines: 118 Xref: news.uni-freiburg.de sci.cryonics:1073 news.answers:7879 sci.answers:162 Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part9 Cryonics Frequently Asked Question List Section 9: Glossary Last Modified Wed Apr 28 09:17:42 1993 (You can fetch cryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscad1.att.com or to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n". The index to this FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1".) Copyright 1993 by Tim Freeman. See the end of Section 1 for restrictions on redistribution. The next three sections have definitions of cryonics vocabulary. The list is divided (at the discretion of the editor) into words to use, words not to use, and words to use in jest. Words to Use CRFT has a glossary on pp. 57 - 58. biostasis - Synonym for "suspension". cardiac arrest - Cessation of heartbeat. clinical death - A person is clinically dead if they are in cardiac arrest and their pupils do not contract when light is shined into them. cryobiology - Biology at low temperatures. This includes organ preservation. cryogenics - Science in general at low temperatures. cryonics - The practice of freezing people at the end of their natural lifespan, hoping for eventual reanimation. information-theoretic death - A person has reached information-theoretic death if a healthy state of that person could not possibly be deduced from the current state. The exact timing of information-theoretic death depends on presently unknown details of how the brain works. The current best estimates put it several hours after clinical death. ischemia - Damage to tissues due to oxygen deprivation. legal death - A person is legally dead if a doctor has signed a death certificate with his or her name on it. This tends to happen when the doctor believes that modern technology will not be able to restore them to health. The criteria for legal death change with time. neurosuspension - The practice of only freezing a person's head or brain. revival - The process of restoring a clinically dead person to health. suspension - The process of preserving a person for eventual revival, usually by freezing in liquid nitrogen. This happens after legal death but hopefully before information-theoretic death. Words Not to Use corpsicle - Pejorative synonym for "suspended person". cryonicist - An ambiguous term. 1. One who studies or who tries to improve the process of freezing people for later revival. Use "cryonics researcher" instead. 2. One who is interested in cryonics. Use "cryonics fan" instead, or perhaps "person interested in cryonics". death - A vague term. Use "legal death", "clinical death", or "information-theoretic death" instead. deanimation - An ugly-sounding synonym for "clinical death". reanimation - An ugly-sounding synonym for "revival". Words To Use In Jest flexionally disabled - frozen stiff metabolically disadvantaged - clinically dead (Next five are from Alcor Indiana Newsletter #5 by Steve Bridge, cryomsgs 1148 and 1149.) chronologically gifted - old experientially enhanced - old achieved an overall metabolic deficiency - died, possibly frozen thermally challenged - frozen assumed room temperature - died, not frozen (Attributed to Rush Limbaugh) Credits The following people contributed to this document. Some of them contributed by posting messages to cryonet or sci.cryonics which I used. They are listed in alphabetical order by last name. Steve Bridge <72320.1642@CompuServe.COM> Kevin Brown Thomas Donaldson Tim Freeman Daniel Green Steven B. Harris <71450.1773@CompuServe.COM> Bryan Michael Kearney Simon Levy Lola McCrary Perry E. Metzger Micheal B. O'Neal Art Quaife Richard Schroeppel Ralph Whelan Brian Wowk and one person on the cryonet mailing list who chose to remain anonymous. -- C. Garrett Goebel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:31:11 +0200 (MET DST) From: ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de (Garrett Goebel) Subject: Forward: Cryonics FAQ Intro Forwarded message: >From ggoebel Wed May 5 18:23:49 1993 From: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Message-Id: <9305051623.AA06043@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de> Subject: no subject (file transmission) To: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:23:48 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL3] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 8741 Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers Path: news.uni-freiburg.de!news.belwue.de!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!das-news.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!tsf From: tsf+@cs.cmu.edu (Timothy Freeman) Subject: Cryonics FAQ 1: Index Message-ID: Followup-To: sci.cryonics Summary: This posting contains a list of Frequently Asked Questions and their answers about cryonics, the practice of carefully preserving very recently clinically and legally dead people in hopes that they can be revived in the future. It should be read by anyone interested in posting to sci.cryonics and by anyone who finds the prospect of certain death irritating. Sender: news@cs.cmu.edu (Usenet News System) Supersedes: Nntp-Posting-Host: u.ergo.cs.cmu.edu Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon Date: Sat, 1 May 1993 07:37:04 GMT Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.Edu Expires: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 07:36:43 GMT Lines: 169 Xref: news.uni-freiburg.de sci.cryonics:1065 news.answers:7871 sci.answers:154 Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part1 Cryonics Frequently Asked Question List Section 1: Introduction and Index Last Modified Mon Apr 26 18:22:46 1993 Copyright 1993 by Tim Freeman. See the end of Section 1 for restrictions on redistribution. Cryonic suspension is an experimental procedure whereby patients who can no longer be kept alive with today's medical abilities are preserved at low temperatures for treatment in the future. Send comments about this list to Tim Freeman (tsf@cs.cmu.edu). The words "I" and "me" in these answers refer to opinions of Tim Freeman, which may or may not be shared by others. There is much information available as cryomsg's. You can fetch cryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscad1.att.com or to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n". You can get a current version of this entire FAQ list by fetching cryomsg "0018". You can get a current version of section "n" of this FAQ list by fetching cryomsg "0018.n". Many FAQs, including this one, are available via anonymous FTP from rtfm.mit.edu in the directory pub/usenet/news.answers. When a FAQ is presented as a netnews post, the filename for it on rtfm appears in the Archive-name line at the top of the post. The parts of this FAQ are archived as "cryonics-faq/part*.Z". In this list, the acronym "CRFT" stands for "Cryonics: Reaching for Tomorrow", which is available from Alcor. The address of Alcor is part of the answer to Question 6-4. Much more is said about Alcor than any other cryonics organization in this list. There are several reasons for this. First, Alcor is the largest, and it gets the most attention. Second, I am an Alcor member, and most of the reference material I have on hand was written by Alcor. I invite people more familiar with other organizations to contribute answers to these questions. This FAQ list needs a new maintainer. Cryomsg 1242 describes what the new maintainer would need to do to take over the job. If you are interested, send me mail. This FAQ list would also benefit from a detailed comparison of the various cryonics organizations. My thoughts about what could go into this are in cryomsg 1241. If you want to volunteer to write this answer, send me mail. This FAQ list has these sections: 1. Introduction and Index 2. Science/Technology -- Is cryonics feasible? 3. Philosophy/Religion -- Is cryonics good? 4. Controversy surrounding Cryonics -- Dora Kent, Cryobiologists, Donaldson 5. Neurosuspension -- Whether to take your body with you. 6. Suspension Arrangements -- The organizations that exist. 7. Cost of Cryonics -- Why does cryonics cost so much? 8. Communications -- How to find out more. 9. Glossary & Acknowledgements -- Important and unimportant jargon. The following questions are covered. Questions marked with a "*" are not yet answered. 2. Science/Technology 2-1. Has anyone been successfully revived from cryonic suspension? 2-2. What advances need to be made before people frozen now have a chance of being revived? 2-3. Is there any government or university supported research on cryonics specifically? 2-4. What is the procedure for freezing people? 2-5. How can one get a more detailed account of a suspension? 2-6. Is there damage from oxygen deprivation during a suspension? 2-7. Do memories require an ongoing metabolism to support them, like RAM in a computer? 2-8. If these frozen people are revived, will it be easy to cure them of whatever disease made them clinically die? 2-9. If I'm frozen and then successfully revived, will my body be old? 2-10. Why is freezing in liquid nitrogen better than other kinds of preservation, such as drying or embalming? 2-11. What is vitrification? 2-12. How is the baboon? Did it live? Any brain damage? 2-13. Who has successfully kept dogs cold for hours? Did they survive? Any brain damage? 2-14. Who froze the roundworms? What happened? 2-15. What were the circumstances under which cat brains produced normal-looking brain waves after being frozen? 2-16. Would it be possible to use some improvement on modern CAT or MRI scanners to infer enough about the structure of a brain to reconstruct the memories and personality? 2-17. Does background radiation cause significant damage to suspendees? 3. Philosophy/Religion 3-1. Are the frozen people dead? 3-2. Is cryonics suicide? 3-3. What about overpopulation? 3-4. When are two people the same person? 3-5. What if they repair the freezing damage (and install a new body, in the case of neurosuspension), and the resulting being acts and talks as though it were me, but it isn't really me? 3-6. What would happen if people didn't age after reaching adulthood? 3-7. Would it be better to be suspended now or later? 3-8. Why would anyone be revived? 3-9. Is there a conflict between cryonics and religious beliefs? 3-10. Is attempting to extend life consistent with Christianity? 4. Controversy surrounding Cryonics 4-1. Why do cryobiologists have such a low opinion of cryonics? How did this start, and how does it continue? 4-2. Who made the statement about reviving a frozen person being similar to reconstructing the cow from hamburger? 4-3. What was the Dora Kent case? 4-4. What about that fellow in the news with the brain tumor? 5. Neurosuspension 5-1. What are the pros and cons of neurosuspension (only freezing the head)? 5-2. How many people have chosen neurosuspension over whole-body suspension? (This question has only a partial answer.) 6. Suspension Arrangements 6-1. How many people are frozen right now? 6-2. How is suspension paid for? 6-3. How will reanimation be paid for? 6-4. What suspension organizations are available? 6-5. How can I get financial statements for the various organizations to evaluate their stability? 6-6. How hard will these people work to freeze me? 6-7. What obligations do the suspension organizations have to the people they have suspended? Will they pay for revival and rehabilitation? 6-8. How long has this been going on? 6-9. How much of the resources of the cryonics organizations are reserved for reviving patients? 6-10. How can uncooperative relatives derail suspensions? 6-11. How should I deal with relatives who will not cooperate with my suspension arrangements? 6-12. How can I persuade my spouse to cooperate with my suspension arrangements? 6-13. How can I pay for my own revival and rehabilitation, and keep some of my financial assets after revival? 6-14. Is Walt Disney frozen? 7. Cost of Cryonics 7-1. Why does cryonics cost so much? 7-2. Is anyone getting rich from cryonics? What are the salaries at these organizations like? 7-3. *How do cryonics organizations invest their money to last for the long term? 8. Communications 8-1. How can I get more information? 8-2. What is a cryomsg? How do I fetch one? Copyright 1993 by Tim Freeman You may freely distribute unmodified copies of this entire FAQ list, provided that you do not work for any cryonics organization or suspension services provider. You may also distribute modified copies of this FAQ list, provided that you also do the following: 1) Include instructions saying how to get a current copy of the full FAQ list. 2) If you use text from this FAQ that is attributed as a direct quote from another source, get permission from the author of the other source before you use their text. -- C. Garrett Goebel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:36:40 +0200 (MET DST) From: ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de (Garrett Goebel) Subject: Forward: Cryonics FAQ Neurosuspension Forwarded message: >From ggoebel Wed May 5 18:24:39 1993 From: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Message-Id: <9305051624.AA06132@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de> Subject: no subject (file transmission) To: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:24:39 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL3] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 5193 Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers Path: news.uni-freiburg.de!news.belwue.de!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!das-news.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!tsf From: tsf+@cs.cmu.edu (Timothy Freeman) Subject: Cryonics FAQ 5: Neurosuspension Message-ID: Followup-To: sci.cryonics Summary: This posting contains a list of Frequently Asked Questions and their answers about cryonics, the practice of carefully preserving very recently clinically and legally dead people in hopes that they can be revived in the future. It should be read by anyone interested in posting to sci.cryonics and by anyone who finds the prospect of certain death irritating. Sender: news@cs.cmu.edu (Usenet News System) Supersedes: Nntp-Posting-Host: u.ergo.cs.cmu.edu Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon References: Date: Sat, 1 May 1993 07:38:40 GMT Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.Edu Expires: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 07:36:43 GMT Lines: 81 Xref: news.uni-freiburg.de sci.cryonics:1067 news.answers:7873 sci.answers:156 Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part5 Cryonics Frequently Asked Question List Section 5: Neurosuspension Last Modified Mon Apr 26 13:07:34 1993 (You can fetch cryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscad1.att.com or to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n". The index to this FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1".) Copyright 1993 by Tim Freeman. See the end of Section 1 for restrictions on redistribution. 5-1. What are the pros and cons of neurosuspension (only freezing the head)? (The next two paragraphs are taken from CRYOMSG 6 posted by Kevin Brown.) An undisputed advantage of the neuro option (over whole body) is cost, both for suspension and for maintenance (liquid nitrogen required to remain frozen). Another advantage is the quality of perfusion with cryoprotectants attained during suspension. Each organ has its own optimal perfusion protocol and when the suspension can concentrate on the head only, the quality of perfusion of the brain does not have to be compromised to attain better perfusion of other parts of the body. Another important advantage of the neuro option is mobility. Whole body suspendees are stored in large, bulky containers that are hard to transport whereas the neuro suspendees are stored in a concrete vault on wheels that can be quickly hauled away in case of fire or other emergency. (Also, if necessary, they can be removed from the large vault and transported in smaller units that fit into a van.) An obvious disadvantage of the neuro option is bad PR; it sounds gruesome. Also, one would think that revival (as a whole, functioning, healthy human being) when only your head was preserved would be more difficult than if your entire body was preserved. However, the whole body situation may not be that much better. Mike Darwin of Alcor noticed several years ago, when examining two suspended people being transferred from another organization to Alcor, that every organ of their bodies suffers cracking from thermal stress during freezing. In particular, the spinal cords suffered several fractures. Thus, the whole bodies were not quite as "whole" as most people assumed. Another reason that a whole body may not offer much more than the head alone is that the technology required to revive people from (whole or neuro) cryonic suspension should also be able to clone bodies, which is much simpler than fixing damaged cells. One possible objection to this approach of recloning a body to attach to the head was voiced by Paul Segal of ACS (in the April 1988 issue of The Immortalist). He suggested that adult cells in the head may be missing some of the DNA needed to reclone the remainder of the body. Even if this objection is valid, it is easy to circumvent by storing samples of all the major organs with the preserved head (which is standard practice at Alcor). If the technology for suspension improves enough to make it possible to store a body without much damage, that might tilt the ideal tradeoff away from neurosuspension if the stored body is easily repairable. See the booklet "Neuropreservation: Advantages and Disadvantages" published by Alcor for a more thorough discussion. 5-2. How many people have chosen neurosuspension over whole-body suspension? (This question has only a partial answer.) The different organizations market neurosuspension differently, so the answer depends on which organization you have in mind. >>>Question sent to alcor@cup.portal.com on Wed Jul 29 1992<<< As of June 20, 1992, Alcor had 271 suspension members and 22 members in suspension. I don't yet have information about how many of the suspension members have chosen neuropreservation. ACS has six whole bodies, two heads, and two brains in cryonic suspension. They can do neurosuspensions, but they do not promote the option. Art Quaife estimates that less than 20% of the living members of ACS have chosen neuropreservation. The Cryonics Institute does not do neurosuspensions. -- C. Garrett Goebel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 93 09:41:46 -0700 From: tcmay@netcom.com (Timothy C. May) Subject: A market mechanism for the extropians list Dani Elder suggests we pay for our postings: >The problems in the list seem to be caused by a lack of strong >market mechanisms. We have the same problem on the list as the >health care system - no marginal cost. It costs us nothing to >post, so we overuse the service. > >I propose creating a scarcity of posting ability, and a market >mechanism to price the commodity. This is how it would work: > >Each person may 'subscribe' to the postings of a list of people. >For example, I, Dani Eder, amy subscribe to the postings of >Tom Morrow and Perry Metzger. Each member of the extropians >list gets a small posting budget for free (say 2K per week), plus >an increment (say 100 bytes/week) per subscriber to their postings. ...rest of details elided... There are some fairly serious problems which come to mind whenever "page charges" are brought up: 1. The "payment" per subscriber (100 bytes per week per subscriber, for example) is arbitrary and is unlikely to have the salutory market effects described (I'm not an economist, but I strongly suspect any "set" price is ineffective, as it fails to balance supply and demand. Thus "free" health care is not much different than "$10 a visit" health care, in terms of overuse, commons problems, etc.). 2. Some of us, rightly or wrongly (I'll leave this for another time) favor fairly long essays on topics that interest us. While the Elder plan allows us to accumulate points toward the posting of such an essay, it seems discouraging. 3. I resent it when people complain about a 6K essay I wrote ("too much mail--can't you summarize your points?"), an essay that may have taken me hours to compose, while others are forwarding 50-70K files that took them only seconds or a few minutes to forward (press releases, sample issues of new zines, GIFs, etc.). 4. Actually, Elder's system may help with this situation, but the pricing still seems "weak." If subscribing to a poster (as Elder describes) costs nothing, then the default for most people will be to subscribe to *everyone* (except perhaps those they explicitly don't wish to see posts of, a la Ray Cromwell's "kill file" analog). By default, it seems to me, everyone will thus have roughly the same quota...and we're back to the old idea of a simple quota system (for all intents and purposes). (Sub-point: the buying and selling of posting rights means that the "free posting coupons" that many on the list never use up--those who almost never post but who are still "subscribed to" by almost everyone else (because it costs nothing to subscribe)--drive the value of posting rights down. I can't predict the effects, but it's possible there will be just as many garbage posts as now.) 5. A "richer" pricing system would let me choose my own price: what I want for a posting in exchange for my labor in writing it. But this is unlikely to develop anytime soon, for many reasons: -posts vary tremendously in quality and relevance, and so cannot be easily priced -posts are so short, in most cases, that establishing a price is too burdensome for the potential reader to deal with -the list software is unlikely to handle this big increase in complexity anytime soon 6. I see little hope that a sufficiently rich market will develop anytime soon. What we are doing with these ideas of market-based posting is recapitulating the development of AMIX, the American Information Exchange, except on an even more fine-grained scale. (AMIX has not take off for reasons others on this List, or occasionally on this List, are better prepared to discuss than I.) I applaud Dani Elder and others for thinking about the "commons problem" and pricing mechanisms that may help reduce it, but I am very leery of adopting any one of the ideas I've seen so far. The resemble "mixed economies," where some things are free and some things are not, some things are subject to detailed rules, other things are not. Often a recipe for disaster. -Tim May -- Timothy C. May | Crypto Anarchy: encryption, digital money, tcmay@netcom.com | anonymous networks, digital pseudonyms, zero 408-688-5409 | knowledge, reputations, information markets, W.A.S.T.E.: Aptos, CA | black markets, collapse of governments. Higher Power: 2^756839 | Public Key: by arrangement ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 05 May 93 12:15:55 BST From: "Russell E. Whitaker" Subject: MEETING (Reminder): UK Cryptoprivacy Association) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- REMINDER: Meeting of the UK Cryptoprivacy Association - ----------------------------------------------------- When: Saturday, 8 May 1993, 1500 To be held at the offices of: FOREST 4th floor 2 Grosvenor Gardens London SW1W 0DH This is located at the corner of Hobart Place, a couple of blocks west of Victoria Station, and almost directly across from the dark green cabbie shelter. If you have trouble finding the place, please call the office on 071-823-6550. Or, call me (Russell Whitaker) on my pager, 081-812-2661, and leave an informative message with the telephone number where you can be reached; I will return the call almost immediately. Discussion will range from the usual general topics, such as the use of secure public key cryptosystems to protect message data, to specific topics, such as recent moves by the U.S. government to restrict choice in data privacy (reference recent discussion on Usenet groups, e.g. sci.crypt and alt.security.pgp). All are invited. Particularly welcome are members of the newly-formed UK CommUnity group ... the local EFF-in-spirit-if-not-in-name folks. Those who plan to attend should email me and let me know. Please. All attendees are requested to bring diskettes - preferably MS-DOS - with their PGP 2.+ public keys. As is usual at these gatherings, several of us will bring our laptops, and will sign public keys, subject to the usual caveats (reference the documentation for PGP 2.2, specifically files PGPDOC1.DOC and PGPDOC2.DOC). If you do not already have a copy of PGP 2.2 (MS-DOS), and would like to have a copy of this public domain program, please bring a formatted, medium or high density 3.5 inch floppy PC diskette; you will be provided a copy of the program. Of course, you might prefer to ftp a version of the program from one of the various archive sites. I suggest trying Demon Internet Systems, which carries the full range of PGP (Phil Zimmerman's "Pretty Good Privacy") implementations: directory /pub/pgp at gate.demon.co.uk. Meetings are of indeterminate time. Those who are interested are invited to join the rest of us at a pseudorandomly determined pub afterwards. Please note: - ------------ In the past few months, interested people have emailed me, requesting FAQs and special information mailings. I regret that, except in very unusual cases (e.g. working press), I cannot, in a timely manner, respond to these requests. I will, however - and for the first time - do a writeup of this meeting, which I will post in various places. What I *am* willing to supply is general information on our activities for the maintainers of existing FAQs, such as that for alt.privacy. FAQ maintainers can contact me at whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk Russell Earl Whitaker whitaker@eternity.demon.co.uk Communications Editor AMiX: RWhitaker EXTROPY: The Journal of Transhumanist Thought Board member, Extropy Institute (ExI) ================ PGP 2.2 public key available ======================= -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.2 iQCVAgUBK+egtoTj7/vxxWtPAQFSFgQAjTPwfm8I5gaP85Yqm1Dh6IRIb6au2sBI THGLGpPGgEao3MAESN0Cmh3nH6IHdSRthR/Uro8CQcpyD4IgGw912wO2CEYy1K/l v0+n4y+2+YFV/X2LDNntP27G3+zP9N6wMJQs2JHNjExfTHaUKFg9Zb90wTvuU4Ce RIbjnZNNriU= =uFhH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:40:48 +0200 (MET DST) From: ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de (Garrett Goebel) Subject: Forward: Cryonics FAQ Communications Forwarded message: >From ggoebel Wed May 5 18:24:49 1993 From: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Message-Id: <9305051624.AA06165@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de> Subject: no subject (file transmission) To: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:24:49 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL3] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 3268 Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers Path: news.uni-freiburg.de!news.belwue.de!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!das-news.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!tsf From: tsf+@cs.cmu.edu (Timothy Freeman) Subject: Cryonics FAQ 8: Communications Message-ID: Followup-To: sci.cryonics Summary: This posting contains a list of Frequently Asked Questions and their answers about cryonics, the practice of carefully preserving very recently clinically and legally dead people in hopes that they can be revived in the future. It should be read by anyone interested in posting to sci.cryonics and by anyone who finds the prospect of certain death irritating. Sender: news@cs.cmu.edu (Usenet News System) Supersedes: Nntp-Posting-Host: u.ergo.cs.cmu.edu Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon References: Date: Sat, 1 May 1993 07:39:37 GMT Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.Edu Expires: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 07:36:43 GMT Lines: 49 Xref: news.uni-freiburg.de sci.cryonics:1072 news.answers:7878 sci.answers:161 Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part8 Cryonics Frequently Asked Question List Section 8: Communications Last Modified Mon Apr 26 13:07:51 1993 (You can fetch cryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscad1.att.com or to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n". The index to this FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1".) Copyright 1993 by Tim Freeman. See the end of Section 1 for restrictions on redistribution. 8-1. How can I get more information? Steve Bridge's "Introduction to Cryonics" gives a quick, three-page overview of cryonics. This overview is cryomsg 972. For a more detailed introduction, including a discussion of the scientific evidence that freezing injury may be repairable, read the booklet "Cryonics: Reaching for Tomorrow", which is available from the Alcor Life Extension Foundation (Question 6-4 has the address). It includes an extensive Question and Answer section. The books "Engines of Creation" and "Unbounding the Future", by K. Eric Drexler, et al. describe nanotechnology (also called molecular nanotechnology or molecular engineering). This is the kind of technology needed to revive anyone preserved with today's methods of cryonic suspension. The largest three suspension organizations each have newsletters. For contact information about on them, see the answer to Question 6-4. 8-2. What is a cryomsg? How do I fetch one? There has been a cryonics mailing list since July 1988. Cryomsg's are mostly the archived messages from this mailing list. To get a cryomsg, send mail to kqb@whscad1.att.com or to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject "CRYOMSG nnn nnn" where the nnn's are the numbers of the cryomsg's you want. Cryomsgs numbers 100, 200, ..., 900 have one line summaries of the preceding 100 cryomsg's. Message number 0000 has a top level index, and message number 0001 has the subjects of all of the messages. Message 0004 has a list of cryonics suspension organizations and also cryonics-related organizations and publications. Message 0005 is entitled "Suggested reference messages for new subscribers". -- C. Garrett Goebel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:38:17 +0200 (MET DST) From: ggoebel@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de (Garrett Goebel) Subject: Forward: Cryonics FAQ Suspension Arrangements Forwarded message: >From ggoebel Wed May 5 18:24:43 1993 From: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Message-Id: <9305051624.AA06143@sun1.ruf.uni-freiburg.de> Subject: no subject (file transmission) To: ggoebel (Garrett Goebel) Date: Wed, 5 May 1993 18:24:42 +0200 (MET DST) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL3] Content-Type: text Content-Length: 10431 Newsgroups: sci.cryonics,news.answers,sci.answers Path: news.uni-freiburg.de!news.belwue.de!ira.uka.de!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!uunet!noc.near.net!das-news.harvard.edu!cantaloupe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!tsf From: tsf+@cs.cmu.edu (Timothy Freeman) Subject: Cryonics FAQ 6: Suspension Arrangements Message-ID: Followup-To: sci.cryonics Summary: This posting contains a list of Frequently Asked Questions and their answers about cryonics, the practice of carefully preserving very recently clinically and legally dead people in hopes that they can be revived in the future. It should be read by anyone interested in posting to sci.cryonics and by anyone who finds the prospect of certain death irritating. Sender: news@cs.cmu.edu (Usenet News System) Supersedes: Nntp-Posting-Host: u.ergo.cs.cmu.edu Organization: School of Computer Science, Carnegie Mellon References: Date: Sat, 1 May 1993 07:38:52 GMT Approved: news-answers-request@MIT.Edu Expires: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 07:36:43 GMT Lines: 222 Xref: news.uni-freiburg.de sci.cryonics:1070 news.answers:7876 sci.answers:159 Archive-name: cryonics-faq/part6 Cryonics Frequently Asked Question List Section 6: Suspension Arrangements Last Modified Wed Apr 28 15:21:08 1993 (You can fetch cryomsg "n" by sending mail to kqb@whscad1.att.com or to kevin.q.brown@att.com with the subject line "CRYOMSG n". The index to this FAQ list is cryomsg "0018.1".) Copyright 1993 by Tim Freeman. See the end of Section 1 for restrictions on redistribution. 6-1. How many people are frozen right now? The July 1992 issue of Cryonics magazine, published by the Alcor Life Extension Foundation, includes a status report of all the approximately 60 people who have been cryonically suspended. Over 40 of these are still in suspension today; the remainder have been thawed and buried because their cryonics organization failed financially. According to Mike Perry's July 1992 Cryonics magazine summary of all known cryonic suspension patients, nobody suspended since 1978 has been thawed out, with one possible exception of a private suspension done in 1982 for which he has no further information. 6-2. How is suspension paid for? The person who makes the cryonics arrangements pays for suspension, usually with life insurance. Some life insurance companies refuse to accept a cryonics organization as the beneficiary. Check with your insurance agent, or check with a cryonics organization for a list of cooperative companies. 6-3. How will reanimation be paid for? The cryonics organization, relatives, or some charity will pay for reanimation if it happens. There is also the Reanimation Foundation, which is an attempt to allow people to fund their own revival. See also the answer to question 6-11. 6-4. What suspension organizations are available? For a complete list of cryonics suspension organizations and other cryonics-related organizations and publications, fetch cryomsg 0004. This text from cryomsg 0004 describes the largest cryonic suspension organizations: Alcor is not only a membership and caretaking organization but also does the cryonic suspensions, using Alcor employees, contract surgeons, and volunteers plus equipment and supplies provided by Cryovita. Alcor Life Extension Foundation 12327 Doherty St. Riverside, CA 92503 (909) 736-1703 & (800) 367-2228 FAX (909) 736-6917 Email: alcor@cup.portal.com Cryonics magazine, monthly, $25./yr. USA, $35./yr. Canada & Mexico, $40./yr. overseas ($10./yr. USA gift subscription for new subscriber) The American Cryonics Society is the membership organization and the suspensions and caretaking are done by Trans Time. American Cryonics Society (ACS) P.O. Box 761 Cupertino, CA 95015 (408) 734-4111 FAX (408) 973-1046, 24 hr FAX (408) 255-5433 Supporting membership, including American Cryonics and American Cryonics News $35./yr. USA, $40. Canada & Mexico, $71. overseas (Note: The Immortalist (below) includes American Cryonics News.) The Cryonics Institute does its own suspension and caretaking of patients. Cryonics Institute (CI) 24443 Roanoke Oak Park, MI 48237 (313) 547-2316 & (313) 548-9549 The Immortalist Society, which has the same address and phone number, publishes The Immortalist, monthly, $25./yr. USA, $30./yr. Canada and Mexico, $40./yr. overseas. Airmail $52. Europe, $62. Asia or Australia. A gift subscription ($15./yr. USA, $25. outside USA) includes a free book (The Prospect of Immortality or Man Into Superman). The International Cryonics Foundation has arrangements with Trans Time to do the cryonics suspensions and caretaking of patients. International Cryonics Foundation 1430 N. El Dorado Stockton, CA 95202 (209) 463-0429 (800) 524-4456 Trans Time does suspensions and caretaking for both ACS and ICF and also has taken on suspension customers directly who didn't go through either non-profit organization. Trans Time, Inc. 10208 Pearmain St. Oakland, CA 94603 510-639-1955 Email: quaife@garnet.berkeley.edu 6-5. How can I get financial statements for the various organizations to evaluate their stability? At this point the best option is to send them paper mail or call them and ask. I would like to eventually get current financial statements from all of them on-line. 6-6. How hard will these people work to freeze me? The Dora Kent case described above is an example. See question 4-3. 6-7. What obligations do the suspension organizations have to the people they have suspended? Will they pay for revival and rehabilitation? Alcor's Consent for Cryonic Suspension states "there are no guarantees that any attempt will ever be made to return me to healthy life". The Cryonic Suspension Agreement states "Alcor shall use such methods as its good faith judgement determines will be most likely to result in preservation and revival of the patient." Reference: Alcor's book "Signing Up Made Simple", 1987. 6-8. How long has this been going on? Robert Ettinger proposed the idea in The Prospect of Immortality which was published in 1964. According to the July 1992 issue of Cryonics magazine, the first person suspended was Dr. James Bedford. He was frozen on 12 Jan. 1967 at the age of 73 by the Cryonics Society of California and is now with Alcor. Bedford has never thawed during that time. When he was moved to another dewar in 1991 (?) the original ice cubes were still intact and several other signs indicated that he had never thawed out. 6-9. How much of the resources of the cryonics organizations are reserved for reviving patients? Alcor's approach to this is discussed in detail in CRFT page A-36. They compute the costs of liquid nitrogen, dewar maintenance, rent, etc., per year. The amount of the trust fund for each patient is twice the amount necessary to pay for this indefinitely assuming a 2% return on investment after inflation. The doubling mentioned in the previous sentence is to provide a margin for error and funds for revival. Assuming that the costs of storage do not change, and a 2% return on investment, and the most efficient storage for a neurosuspension patient, the value of the fund in 1991 dollars y years after suspension is $3300 + ($3300 * (1.02 ^ y)) The corresponding figures for the least efficient storage for a whole-body patient are $84357 + ($84357 * (1.02 ^ y)) Alcor's minimum fee for suspension and storage does not depend on how they are going to do the storage, so it isn't clear to me how the numbers derived in CRFT page A-36 should compare to Alcor's suspension minimums. 6-10. How can uncooperative relatives derail suspensions? Someone confronted with the death of a close relative is likely to do everything possible to postpone or prevent it, even after there is clearly no hope of the potential suspendee ever regaining consciousness. This leads naturally to continuing hospital life support in marginal circumstances, which can lead to months of brain ischemia before the suspension happens. Also, cancers tend to metastasize, and given enough time and enough life support, they are likely to metastasize to the brain and consume much of it. By the time suspension happens, there may not be much to suspend. It is important for your relatives to understand what is going to happen. In particular, if you have arranged for neurosuspension, you don't want your relatives to do something surprising when they figure out that the people from your cryonics organization are at some point going to surgically remove your head. 6-11. How should I deal with relatives who will not cooperate with my suspension arrangements? Use a Power of Attorney for Health Care to prevent uncooperative relatives from derailing any cryonics arrangements you make. The idea is to make sure that the person making decisions about your health cooperate with your desire to be suspended. At one time, Alcor published a list of people willing to accept the power of attorney; I do not know whether they still do this. 6-12. How can I persuade my spouse to cooperate with my suspension arrangements? >>>Answer under construction.<<< 6-13. How can I pay for my own revival and rehabilitation, and keep some of my financial assets after revival? The Reanimation Foundation is set up to enable you to "take it with you" and provide financial support for your reanimation, reeducation, and reentry. It is based in Liechtenstein, which does not have a Rule Against Perpetuities, and thus allows financial assets to be owned by a person long after the person is declared legally dead. Reanimation Foundation c/o Saul Kent 16280 Whispering Spur Riverside, CA 92504 (800) 841-LIFE 6-14. Is Walt Disney frozen? No. There was a time when all of the cryonics organizations would tell you this. Since then Alcor (possibly among others) has realized that if they admit when an individual is not frozen, then it is possible to infer by elimination who is frozen, which they have in many cases agreed to keep secret. Thus Alcor will no longer say anything informative about whether Disney was frozen. Nevertheless, Disney is not frozen. -- C. Garrett Goebel ------------------------------ End of Extropians Digest V93 Issue #0244 ****************************************