From: Delvieron@aol.com
Date: Sun Nov 21 1999 - 21:28:27 MST
In a message dated 99-11-21 17:06:26 EST, James wrote:
<<I've been meaning to reply to this for some time. I have had a number
of similar ideas, and what I think amounts to a serious critique of
standard objectivist ethics. I acknowledges the absolute necessity
for treating people as individuals but still come up with an ethical
impulse to service to others.>>
I would say an impulse toward service to all (myself included), but I'm with
you.
<<I think about ethics in terms of time scales. On the shortest
possible time scale, the moment of the perceived now, i.e. the period
long enough for my brain to signal my body electro-chemically to do
something, take the action and receive the sensory feedback, I can
only do what I want to do. After all, we each act through our own
bodies, so in some sense it makes sense in those moments only to
analyze our own goals. This corresponds well I think with Ayn Rand's
selfishness: free of coercion, we each follow our own values.>>
I would agree in general with the most local and fastest events being focused
primarily on yourself, though I think this also applies to those if very
close proximity.
<<As you broaden the timescale, and consider the hierarchy of meta goals
(e.g. I move my legs because I want to walk, I want to walk because I
want to go to work, I want to go to work because I want to do my job,
I want to do my job for money, pride, fun, etc.) you find a greater
and greater admixture of other peoples' concerns in the desiderata.>>
Too true. As long as there are two or more people in existence, our concerns
almost certainly will have to interact.
<<This makes sense, because serving the interests of other sentient
beings in a cooperative way is the only method I know to allow for
peaceful, mutually beneficial existence among them.>>
Again, the main difference I would have here is to expand service to all
sentient beings (including myself). And by cooperating to acheive a better
life for all concerned, we are able to do more than any one could do singly.
<<If one refused to consider the interests of others, one would have nothing
to offer them, i.e. no goods or services to exchange. It's possible one could
become a completely self-sufficient hermit, a la the unabomber in his
shack, but in so doing one would be deliberately choosing a path of
eventual impoverishment, in every sense -- material, mental, and
ethical -- relative to the mass of humanity who enjoy benefit from
constructive engagement with their peers. No sort of greatness or
glory could be attained that way. Even a great mind that did seek
isolation would hope to bring back her or his ideas to the public and
thus would serve and engage with the mass of humanity in a substantial
way.>>
This also is true to a certain extent. But are greatness and glory things to
be sought? They can be kind of nice, but I think of them more as
by-products. I would find a person who annonymously makes contributions to
the betterment of people would be making as great a contribution as those who
do so publicly (this annonymity need not be selfless; the person may just
value privacy and peace).
<<In fact, I most respect those whose value other selves so highly that
on the longest scale they plan to contribute to the good of all
humankind or mindkind, to employ Anders Sandberg's coinage.>>
Yes, I think the longest scale is the one that shows the maximal path to good
for all. Mostly because I believe a good life is cumulative, so the longer
you live a decent life, the better. And if we all are pledged to aiding one
another to that goal, then hopefully all it will take is one sentient being
acheiving eternity, who can then bring the rest of us through if we can't do
so ourselves.
<<On that scale, one doesn't need to think of oneself at all, since if one
has
properly planned for one's one productive work, care, and self-preservation
in the short and medium term, one can trust to one's labor to earn the means
in the future to go on doing so. So in the long run others and their desires
are paramount in my scheme.>>
I'd say the desires of others are important, but that my own are paramount
from my perspective (if for no other reason then I have the most say in those
desires and their acheivement).
<<Another way to phrase this is that my ethical system begins with total
respect for the individual's rights and absolute dominion over himself
or herself, but, strangely, finds its telos in service to others. So
while the instant principle of action is self-interest, my values are
utterly philanthropic. I think the standard objectivist ethics lacks
any discussion of this ethical telos, though I may simply not yet have
read enough.>>
Absolute dominion over one's self may not be the best course (though near
dominance is close). What about those who are incapable of making rational
decisions through accident or disease? What of those who have willingly
accepted responsibilities, but then decide they do not wish to fulfill them?
I would agree that when working with a functional mind and making decisions
that do not strongly impact on others, then unfettered autonomy is the best
course. However, it is rare that our own actions do not have an effect on
another. This must be carefully weighed. Sometimes self interest simply
conflicts with philanthropy (or even other self interests). I agree that
objectivist thinking (specifically Rand) comes across as being focused on the
self to the virtual exclusion of all others. I prefer a more balanced
approach that acknowledges both the objective and subjective aspects of my
life. I am one of many subjective universes built from and interacting with
an objective one (as well as each other).
<<Still another way to look at this would be to acknowledge that we all
face the world from within our own skins. Therefore, we are obliged
to nurture and protect ourselves from moment to moment. But on a
longer time scale, when our goals may direct the arc of our whole
lives, my values drive me to recognize that there's a lot more good to
gain from considering and working for the good of others, rather than
ourselves, since there is so much more to the world of other people
than there is to any individual.
Regards,
James Wetterau >>
I agree that we are obliged to nurture and protect ourselves, but disagree
that there is more to the world of other people than there is to any
individual. Going back to my acknowledgement of the subjective aspect of
life, each and every person is a subjective universe, derived from the
objective universe in which we live. Though the actual contents of any one
subjective universe may be limited, it is still precious, and I do not
believe you can successfully quantize how precious. Each person is of
inestimable value (to me if to nobody else), thus I am as valuable as any
other person, and they are as valuable as me. I chose between the needs of
myself and others more in terms of practicality than any sense of one being
more important than the other. Often, it is my own needs that are the most
practical for me to meet (and also the most necessary, as if I am to be of
any good to others, it usually means I need to take good care of myself).
But again, I would say there is no more nor less to the world of others than
there is to my own.
Thanks for the comments, James. They certainly helped me further examine my
own ideas on this subject.
Glen Finney
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