From: Replicant00@aol.com
Date: Sat Oct 30 1999 - 13:39:29 MDT
In a message dated 10/29/1999 8:59:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
rob@hbinternet.co.uk writes:
<< I included heresy, as I am guessing that the motivation for your objection
to my original post rests with horror at the prospect of change. >>
Dear boy, this is not a good guess! Yes, it's time to stop this, change it's
tone, or take it offlist. I will tell you why.
you seem to consistently misjudgments like the one above. Perhaps I am guilty
of the same thing.
I asked you why you grouped the two together, condescension and heresy.
You project onto me (among other things) a horror (though it is Halloween -
it is a good day for horror) at change. manyh of yoru ideas I read and agree
with, but when I object to something, I suddenly am a religious fanatic?
Nothing could be farther from the truth, if so, why on earth would I be on a
list like this, which advocates changes even the most avant-garde find
horrifying! ...Like avoiding death? Hello....
{For example: I adore Daniel Dennett's work, yet I find some very fundamental
things wrong with his theory, that doesn't translate = "he is heretical."}
OK Rob, check: Heresy isn't my word. You own it! For one thing I am an
atheist and a humanist. So perhaps you should stop seeing me as a fictitious
character and begin to ask me first rather than guess what I am thinking.
Stop seeing me as an enemy! One of "them" (whoever they are) with that Book
(whatever it is). I disagree with some things you say. that doesn't make me
Satan. Or the Spanish Inquisition
: - )
I have never stated that things should not change, or that morals SHOULD not
be something upon which the individual is left to decide. This leaves people
far too vulnerable to wrongdoing oppressive systems that hurt them or let
them stagnate in order to control them.
What I object to, once again, is the idea that men will do what they like
and do the right thing "au natural." This is folly to assume. We seek
training. We need it! We are after all, primates. And testosterone loaded
ones at that! Unless you plan to upload tomorrow, or you live in a dream
world, expect men to continue to f**k up, even kill each other over gold, and
for other men to continue to "moralize" to attempt to change that. Yes,
hopefully in new and well founded, rational ways, instead of made up goofy
dumb ones like the current religions and artificial structures.
But rebelling against authority and yammering for people to be self
responsible isn't enough Rob, we've got to put on our thinking caps and come
up with some viable solutions. People will still act like fools. They get
burned. They get tired. They seek wisdom, and a path of good actions. they
ask for guidance, and then the religions step in and feed off that void.
Rules help us. Discipline is key to life. Not all discipline must originate
from us. Tai Chi is a system, it gives us physical well being. Good nutrition
must be learned, practiced, daily. Just like that, l moral systems can be
aids in life, just as any other practice. We get better at it when we work
the programs. Sure ... we must be free to choose which ones we want to use!
Or... We can make our own, and we can follow them. Especially if we are
futurists and dreamers, we shouldn't be demanding everyone else throw away
their rules and be "free." We must offer something better!
How?
We can write books, have discussions, lead classes. If they are good enough
rules, people will mimic them. The problem with self responsibility is a
conundrum, we can only do it for one person.
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