From: Freespeak (f-prime@activist.com)
Date: Tue Jan 19 1999 - 11:46:06 MST
Can anyone suggest a catchy term for the illusion
that "collectives are real" or "collectives exist?"
This issue is discussed in 'Word Controlled Humans'
by John Harland, out of print but apparently available
from A-Albionic --
<http://a-albionic.com/a-albionic/gopher/conspiracy/a-albionic/bonus>
<http://www.msen.com/~lloyd/BIG.html>
<http://www.msen.com/~lloyd/LITTLE.html>
I also found 'The Life And Crucifixion Of Julian And The Threat Of
Group-Entities' by Harland, John at
<http://www.books.com/scripts/view.exe?sid~dxd6YNGjrY7RZYV/isbn~0914752332>,
which suggests the term "Group-Entity" Illusion. But maybe someone
can suggest a term with greater "meme-power."
The basic illusion is that the "flock" is real or exists as an
entity, often spoken about as if it is a volitional entity.
Similarly, the "school" of fish, "society" of humans, "country"
of citizens, "government" of politicians and bureaucrats, etc.
For some related analysis, see Max's DEEP ANARCHY -- AN ELIMINATIVIST
VIEW OF "THE STATE" <http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl07d.htm>.
Frederick Mann
At 09:03 AM 1/19/99 -0700, Dick.Gray@bull.com wrote:
>
>
>James Daugherty writes:
>>Unfortunately, Ayn Rand was wrong. Collectives are real!
>
>She never said collectives aren't real. She said they're not entities: they
>have no independent physical existence. They exist as relations and as
>conceptual categories, not as objects. Take away the individuals and
>society disappears. The converse doesn't hold.
>
>>Memes create social organisms just as genes create regular biological
>>organisms.
>
>An intriguing idea, but wholly unsubstantiated. Can you point to such an
>organism? Have you communicated with one (other than in the sense of
>communicating with one or more individuals representing it)?
>
>>One could just a well say that the human body doesn't
>>exist! Really, the human body is a group of individual cells, albeit
>>co-operating in complex ways.
>
>It's somewhat more than that: it's a tightly integrated and mutually
>dependent group of cells with a more or less central control mechanism. A
>cell can't exist apart from the rest of the body except under highly
>artificial conditions. None of this is true of individuals vis-a-vis
>society, for instance.
>
>>Nonsense! Collectives and
>>human bodies do exist......fortunately, with self-awareness, one
>>does not have to be part of a collective.
>
>Exactly. But if the collective were truly an organism, this would not be
>true.
>
>Regards,
>Dick
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