From: Freespeak (f-prime@activist.com)
Date: Sat Mar 21 1998 - 16:37:46 MST
[Note: Earlier parts of the peme debate --
including the "peme rules" -- can be found
at: '#TL075: Pemes = Political Memes' --
<http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl075.htm>
and '#TL076: The Twilight of the Phobocrats' --
<http://www.buildfreedom.com/tl/tl076.htm>,
which are periodically updated.]
At 06:40 AM 3/21/98 -0800, Yak Wax <yakwax@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Frederick Mann wrote:
>
>> I'm still waiting for a response from Yak Wax
>> <yakwax@yahoo.com>. It's, off course, possible
>> that he's a deep anarchist and that this entire
>> debate is for him such a bore that it's not worth
>> spending any more time on. (A deep anarchist has
>> cleared out all or most of his or her deep pemes
>> and is not subject to the Peme Rules.)
>
>That is, of course, possible.
At 07:32 AM 3/21/98 -0800, Yak Wax <yakwax@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>I'm writing this directly to you, but if you wish
>to use any of this in your debate I don't have any
>objections. After I replied to your post on "pemes"
>I joined your freedom list for a short amount of time
>to see how you and other list members were advancing
>in this area, because I found little or no reason to
>help I did not respond. This was due to a certain
>degree of paranoia on my part to anyone who has
>cleared what I believe your "deep pemes" to mean
>from their mind. I have studied this area myself
>and have drawn some conclusions that justify this
>paranoia. Firstly, I never applied these ideas in
>the ways you have and never created "peme rules"
>(which, BTW, correspond to my own experiences
>completely.) When discussing these topics I used
>to talk of a 'political food chain' - occupying
>the top are 'originators' (these would be "deep
>peme" creators) with 'propagators' of various
>kinds (in your terms these would be creators of
>"surface pemes" and followers of "surface pemes")
>all the way down. If, in fact, you have cleared
>"deep pemes" from your mind, then your political
>biases (of attacking authority) is part of your
>own egoistic pursuits. From my own exploration
>of these ideas I have found 'originators' to be
>the most dangerous of persons, although I have
>my doubts to whether any truly exist.
>
>It is my belief that a "deep peme" cannot be
>created by someone who is 'infected' with "deep
>pemes." It follows that 'originators' would
>be what you call "deep anarchists" (although
>I disagree with your terminology, as "anarchist"
>is a highly political standpoint that is the
>result of infection, I have always referred
>to myself as "non-political.") Also, if an
>'originator' wished to gain control of others
>he or she would do so by first ridding them
>of those deep pemes created by others, and
>simultaneously establishing a new set of
>"deep pemes" (in your case anti-authority.)
>
>Obviously I have nothing against your or
>anyone else's egoistic pursuits (true
>decentralisation can only occur when all
>entities populate the top of the 'political
>food chain'). I'm just trying to determine
>your own standpoint.
The 'Political Food Chain'
--------------------------
1. Deep pemes Originators/
("constitution," "president," Deep Anarchists
"authority," "emperor," etc.)
Political Concepts
2. Surface pemes Propagators/
("the public interest," etc.) Phobocrats
Political Beliefs
3. Toxic memes Followers
("he made me angry," etc.) Rebels
Personal Self-Defeating Beliefs
I find it interesting that your experiences
accord with the Peme Rules -- they are of
course slightly overstated (but not for
some Followers and Rebels!)
My list of Originators:
1. William of Ockham
2. Voltaire
3. Jonathan Swift
4. Lysander Spooner
5. Max Stirner
6. Friedrich Nietzsche
7. Hans Vaihinger
8. George Gurdjieff
9. Aleister Crowley
10. Ron Hubbard
11. Timothy Leary
12. Robert Anton Wilson
13. Hakim Bey
14. Max More
Who else should I add to my list?
The primary characteristic of Originators is
their *ability and willingness to question
everything*. I suspect all the above had or
have this quality.
I don't think any of my Originators have
cleared out all their deep pemes. They
could be regared as Proto-Deep Anarchists.
(As a result of my identification of the
Peme Conflict Principle, I discovered that
I also have more deep pemes to tackle.)
Originators are extremely dangerous to the
status quo -- provided they can get people
to listen to them. (There are, and probably
have been, many more unknown Originators
who failed at getting people to listen to
them.)
I don't "attack authority." I attack the
very *idea* or *notion* of "authority"
(so-called). The notion of "authority"
in the political sense is a deep peme.
(To regard Einstein as an authority on
relativity is valid.) All so-called
"political authority" is bogus -- hucksters
who call themselves "president," "emperor,"
etc. and suckers who believe them.
I certainly am not "anti-authority"
because from my perspective there isn't
any so-called "authority" to be against.
There are only pretended "authorities"
-- and Followers who believe and obey
them, and Rebels who believe and fight
them.
Hubbard was a master at helping people
remove some of their toxic memes, then
installing his own toxic memes to create
Loyal Followers. As far as I know, Hubbard
never addressed what I consider deep pemes.
I think that someone with deep pemes can
both help others remove deep pemes and
install new deep pemes.
By "anarchist" I mean someone who has no
ruler and doesn't rule others. I would
agree with you that an anarchist operating
at the Rebel level ("anti-authority") is
infected -- he hasn't shed the *idea* of
"authority" (so-called). He doesn't realize
that the hucksters masquerading as "emperor,"
"president," etc. are imposters and liars.
You say, "...[T]rue decentralisation can
only occur when all entities populate the
top of the 'political food chain'." You're
right. Coercive politics is about those
higher on the 'chain' "eating out the
substance" of those lower on the 'chain.'
To prevent having your "substance eaten
out," you have to raise yourself to the
top of the 'polical food chain.'
Deep Anarchists of the world, escape from
the 'political food chain' hierarchies and
disperse at the top!
Frederick Mann
At 04:10 PM 3/21/98 +0000, PeterTurland <peter.turland@VIRGIN.NET> wrote:
>
>Genes, Memes now Pemes.
>New Taxonomical Themes.
>Neologisms Abound.
>In a net wired ground.
>Of esteem seeking ideological dreams.
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