From: Michael Lorrey (retroman@tpk.net)
Date: Tue May 13 1997 - 18:11:50 MDT
Erik Moeller wrote:
>
> Perry E. Metzger wrote:
>
> (The terminology used in the subject tells more than the rest of this
> mail.)
>
> > > > > 1) Media propaganda.
> > >
> > > > WHose? The Cuban Government jams all US radio and television boradcasts,
> > > > to the point of occasionally interfering in the southern Florida
> > > > broadcast market area. Cubans get a banana version of the BBC: 3
> > > > channels of government propaganda.
> > >
> > > I do not only see TV and radio as media, but also people. Trained
> > > demagogues who are supposed to infiltrate Cuba.
>
> > Well, you know, trained demagogues are out in force all over the world
> > defending Cuba -- take you, for example. And yet, we don't see people
> > fleeing the west for the socialist paradise.
>
> Sure. I get money from these evil communists dwelling everywhere for
> correcting gross mistakes made by Libertarians like you. The communist
> world conspiracy is coming your way. Time to defend your property.
>
> > > Such operations have always taken place, not only in Cuba, but in
> > > other countries, too. When you see big demonstrations in the Tv,
> > > like in Bosnia, Bulgaria etc., this can only be the effect of media
> > > propaganda.
>
> > You know, its amazing how close that assessment is to the one that
> > Richard Nixon gave for anti-Vietnam war protests. "Outside
> > Agitators". No one on their own could *possibly* dislike someone like
> > Slobodan Milosovich -- after all, he's the friend of the workers,
> > right?
>
> Yes. The war in Bosnia was a product of western capitalist countries,
> designed to change power structures in that region and to push arms
> industry.
Actually it was a tool to prop up production and sales of Russian arms
in the face of lessening western aid to Russia for economic conversion.
SInce the Russians were dragging their feet in conversion, we cut back
aid, so they started pumping arms sales to Serbia.
>
> > I bet the wall fell in East Germany because of those darn trained
> > "outside agitators" too, just like with the student protests in the
> > '60s in the U.S.
>
> The wall in Germany fell because of massive media propaganda. Kohl
> himself admitted this afterwards and said it would not have been
> possible without western media. Of course hundreds of thousands of
> unemployed people in East Germany would prefer socialism now.
Yeah, working for a living is just too darn much work.
>
> > > This little Cuba is, besides North Korea, one of the last socialist
> > > regimes which doesn't privatize itself too much. The effects on the
> > > people living there are bad, and maybe free markets would make the
> > > standard of living better for many of them (making Cuba what it was
> > > under Batista, the brothel and casino of the US)
>
> > Yeah. Right now, its so much better with it being the brothel and
> > casino of the European countries that send tourists.
>
> That's simply not the case. Many tourists are disappointed after their
> travel to Cuba because there was no single prostitute. Even in Havana
> you will find hardly more prostitutes than in Berlin or Cologne.
>
> > > -- but if Cuba was a free market country and isolated the way it is
> > > now, you can be sure that it would be much worse there than in North
> > > Korea.
>
> > Dunno. South Africa managed to do pretty well even when it was under
> > sanctions. Of course, Cuba isn't *really* isolated -- the government
> > is free to buy anything it likes from Canada, Europe, and South
> > America. Sanctions there are astoundingly porous -- Americans can even
> > go there pretty freely if you travel through Mexico or Canada.
>
> A good economy is not only characterized by its growth or size, but also
> by the distribution of wealth and the inequality. That's what
> Libertarians always forget. And that's why people like you might mean
> the end of this planet.
So the fact that resources in Cuba are reserved for Communist Party
members first and foremost is the most egalatarian way to run things.
>
> > > When you claim that they spread propaganda, you must prove it. It has
> > > been proven for US media millions of times (see media during Vietnam &
> > > Gulf War, presidential elections etc.)
>
> > Walter Cronkite's painful declaration on the evening news that the war
> > in Vietnam wasn't a good thing must be a collective hallucination of
> > the proletariat, eh?
>
> I can't remember any politician who said that war is a good thing. Most
> of them just said it was necessary. Words are just words, and deeds are
> deeds. The US aggression against Vietnam and other communist countries
> was simply wrong (although a war can never be justified).
Yup, Saddam was in no way justified in invading Kuwait, was he. We still
were'nt justified in kicking him back out.
>
> > > And the media in the US aren't owned by gov't. Why do they support
> > > it?
>
> > Maybe they have this weird idea that its better to be in a free
> > country where they can print what they like?
>
> <very big evil grin>
>
> Maybe you should ask the guys at a-albionic research how free western
> media are.
The media is free, but it is biased. I can say whatever I want here,
publish it, even send a letter to the editor and expect it to be printed
(just look at all the letters that creationists and even Tim McVeigh
have had published). I can do all this here and not be afraid of being
"dissapeared" for it. What is not guarranteed is that anyone will be
interested enough to listen, or to believe what I say.
>
> > > I am no communist. I wouldn't want to live in Cuba, North Korea or even
> > > China. I already said that my "dream-economy" is that of Japan,
> > > partially because of state intervention, partially because of a kind of
> > > "politics of consent".
>
> > I see you know at least as much about Japan as you do about most other
> > things.
>
> You bore me. Your mental abilities seem to be limited to insults and
> rant.
No comeback eh?
>
> > > Big enterprise leaders there have realized that operating the way US
> > > leaders do would lead their country back to the Middle Age.
>
> > Strange that the U.S. isn't back in the middle ages. I guess we just
> > have a shortage of cathedrals and hand illuminated manuscripts
> > standing between us and economic chaos.
>
> With 15 % poor people, low education standard, a rich power elite,
> propaganda by TV religions and enterprise advertising, growing
> inequality and a hardly existant welfare system, the US are one of the
> saddest examples for free markets ins world history and will remind
> anyone with a little bit of brain capacity of the Middle
> Ages.
Reminds me of a Dilbert cartoon. Gee, if you get rid of the poorest 15%,
you will still have a poorest 15%, which you can do over and over until
the richest people are part of the poorest 15%.
The "growing inequality", whill accurate, is disingenuous. Just because
the rich are getting richer does not mean that the poor are getting
poorer. In our case, it means that the poor are not getting richer as
fast as the rich are getting richer. Despite the propaganda you have
been brainwashed with, most especially from liberal media sources, the
poor are definitely NOT getting poorer here.
>
> Erik Moeller
--
TANSTAAFL!!!
Michael Lorrey
------------------------------------------------------------
mailto:retroman@tpk.net Inventor of the Lorrey Drive
Agent Lorrey@ThePentagon.com
Silo_1013@ThePentagon.com http://www.tpk.net/~retroman/
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MIKEYMAS(tm): The New Internet Holiday
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------------------------------------------------------------
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]+$y)%256;&S}$x=$y=0;for(unpack('C*',<>)){$x++;$y=($s[$x%=256]+$y)%256;
&S;print pack(C,$_^=$s[($s[$x]+$s[$y])%256])}sub S{@s[$x,$y]=@s[$y,$x]}
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