From: James Rogers (jamesr@best.com)
Date: Thu Dec 26 1996 - 02:16:39 MST
>James Rogers wrote:
[...BIG SNIP for the sake of brevity...]
>> 3) Technology has not had any significant net impact on behavior. The
>> advance of technology has not yet allowed people to overcome our behavioral
>> DNA, only mask it.
>>
>> One thing that kind of bugs me about this is that I have a suspicion that a
>> group of the most dedicated extropian transhumanist would behave the same as
>> the rest of humanity if evaluated as a group via hidden observation. I
>> realize that it is not easy overcoming millions of years of evolution, but
>> at some level, I think we are fooling ourselves into thinking that we are
>> progressing beyond our basic biological imperatives. If evaluated from afar
>> as a group, I have a suspicion that Extropians would appear to behave with
>> the same net imperatives as everyone else, even if on an individual level
>> there were some differences.
>>
>> We may have reached a point where evolution is hindering, rather than
>> helping, the development of transhumans. The fact that we don't notice that
>> we are following these behaviors indicates how fundamental they are. The
>> timescales we are using for the evolution of transhumans is too small for
>> evolutionary development. While our DNA may be appropriate for modern
>> humans, it is not appropriate for transhumans, and the influence is
>> observable in a larger context, no matter how well extropian transhumanists
>> hide it as individuals.
>>
>> Perhaps it is impossible for humans in our current state to achieve
>> extropian transhumanism. Maybe attempts at transcending beyond our current
>> selves is nothing more than superficial; a candy coating on old DNA.
>>
>> -James Rogers
>> jamesr@best.com
To which Michael Lorrey responded:
>
>I would say that the only error is your assumption that technology has
>had no impact on our behavior. The easiest proof of the opposite would
>be to examine the impact of weapons technology on social structures. The
>introduction of the gun for example, made armor, swords, spears, and
>castles obsolete, thus heralded the end of fuedal aristocracy which
>arose out of such technology. The industrial demands of gun technology
>necessitated industrial chemistry, mass production, efficient power
>generation technology, and efficient urban centers. This is only one
>example.
>
>Human behavior is shaped by the technology that is used. just look at
>the past few decades. Living at the brink of nuclear extinction for so
>long has had enough of an impact to make people really see the
>usefullness of worldwide peaceful cooperation as opposed to
>imperialistic rivalry. This is one of the greatest behavioral changes
>ever and it happened right under your nose.
>
>We extropian transhumanists are as individuals becoming more and more
>evolved behaviorally compared to people around us who have not been
>associated as we have due to the amount we have steeped ourselves in the
>technology of the internet compared to the average person. Living up
>here in the sticks, I find myself day by day becoming less and less able
>to relate to the people in my community, as they are less and less able
>to comprehend the sort of concepts that you and I take for granted as
>obvious. As we see more and more technological advancements happening,
>or are working on them ourselves, we are becoming less and less human,
>and more and more transhuman simply by our concepts, relationships, and
>that which we see as given rather than mere possibility.
You somewhat misunderstood my point regarding technology. I was stating
that our *fundamental* behaviors and imperatives haven't changed. The same
fundamental biological imperatives that drove human behavior 100000 years
ago are driving human behavior today regardless of technology. These
behaviors happen at such a low level that we normally are not even conscious
of them. Sure, specific high-level behaviors *do* change, but these are the
programmed, socially induced behaviors. The DNA level behaviors (animal
behaviors) have not changed. There is a whole aspect of our behavior that
is totally on autopilot.
If you step outside the bulk of humanity and observe them from afar, their
behavior is in most ways indistinguishable from other animals. These
behaviors are so intrinsic to us that they influence our evolving
"programmable" social behavior to a great extent. Our learned behaviors are
variations on the basic themes of our DNA-induced behaviors.
To quote you (Michael Lorrey):
>"Look at baboon or chimp behavioral psychology. I am convinced that
>as we grow from infants to adults we go through behavioral evolutions
>symbolic of different stages in our species evolution from primitive
>apes, just as our fetal biological evolution is analogous to our
>evolution from one celled animals up to our present stage.
>
>Schoolyard bullies exihibit classic alpha male behaviors, and enforce
>genetic purity to the average to prevent possible genetically weak
>individuals from impinging on the troops gene pool and thereby
>threatening its survival."
Since you imply that these reflections of animal behavior are not learned,
then they *must* be the influence of our DNA. As we get older, our DNA
doesn't change, and neither do our fundamental behaviors. Go to any bar on
a Saturday night and observe human behavior. The parallels to animal
behavior are uncanny.
The most intelligent, educated people exhibit characteristic animal
behaviors, even people who are consciously aware of the parallelism of these
behaviors with animal behaviors. The only thing that happens as we become
adults is that we learn to mask these behaviors a little better, but their
influence is unmistakeable and unavoidable.
There are some aspects of our behavior which I believe are virtually
impossible to address or control in a logical, rational manner.
-James Rogers
jamesr@best.com
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