From: Suresh Naidu (snaidu@hypatia.math.uwaterloo.ca)
Date: Tue Oct 01 1996 - 11:30:31 MDT
On Tue, 1 Oct 1996 Enigl@aol.com wrote:
> In a message dated 96-09-28 17:04:12 EDT, Suresh Naidu writes:
>
> <<"I hate and fear government as much as anyone, but I also fear corporate
> tyranny, and as long as private interests are this selfish and greedy, I
> will
> pay my taxes to help out my fellow man." >>
>
> When you buy from a business, you directly help me, your fellow man, by
> paying my salary. Is that greedy or selfish of me and my big-business
> employer?
Yes, because you arent getting the direct amount you should from your
labour. Instead, money is being soaked up by "management", where the
coordinators are paid more than the workers. This kind of top-down
structure reeks of a closed fascism, where the guy at the top gives the
orders and the men/women at the bottom have to take it or leave. here`s
no room for negotiation.
Business assumes that the workers aren`t competent to run a business by
themselves. I`m a big advocate of co-ops.
> There is nothing more selfish or greedy than a government who spends probably
> 100%+ of my tax dollars on interest payments (I call it the "blackhole").
>
Interest payments on debts taken out for (under Reagan) arms
manufacturing, which gives businesses more lucrative contracts than they
could possibly get from consumer items. More money goes towards corporate
subsidies than welfare.
> That tax money goes to pay someone else's salary probably not even in the
> Western Hemisphere. Because of this, the tax money doesn't really go for the
> things you think it does.
>
I consider a person outside the western hemisphere my fellow man.
> Besides, taxes increase business operating costs forcing my company to reduce
> my salary or lay me off. When you pay your taxes you do not help me.
>
Really, so this justifies the less than 5 percent tax business pays versus
the much higher (15%) taxes us "commoners" have to pay.
> However, I do not expect to be helped by you or others for "free". I don't
> want government charity either. I think you and I must _both_ make a
> satisfying exchange (e.g.monitary) or I perfer NO deal at all. If you don't
> think my business is worth buying from, you should not buy from me.
>
Yes, this is because you are likely to have talents that get you ahead in
the current economy. However, there are those that arent as fortunate. If
we are in this kind of "must screw over" other people circumstances, some
people are going to get screwed. some very Talented people cannot get
ahead without
being ruthlessly greedy.
> On Sun, 29 Sep 1996 Suresh Naidu <snaidu@undergrad.math.uwaterloo.ca> Wrote:
>
>
> >I`m sure everybody on this list knows what these two
> >businesses [ Nestle and Shell] do to the Third World.
>
>
> Certainly we know, they and companies like them are the only thing that keeps
> the entire third world from starving to death, in spite of incredibly stupid
> socialist governments that keep pushing things in the direction of poverty.
>
>
The strongest bulwark of the capitalist system is the ignorance of its
victims. -Adolf Fischer
Echoes of Jeane Kirkpatrick here.
Obviously you don't. Believe what the news tells you, it`s safe. Nigeria
has a very very repressive dictatorship,
capitalist to the extreme, but backed by arms sales from shell, so
Shell can move in and drill oil. Because Shell has the government in its
pocket, and so no environmental regulations are imposed. The Ogoni people
live on the land being drilled, and thanks top those very crop unfriendly
oil residues that perpetually come from the extraction of the black fluid,
they are starving. Anyone who opens their mouth in protest is imprisoned.
Read about Ken Saro-Wiwa.
Also Nicaragua, Chile, El Salvador and every other country the U.S.
secretly invaded was to preserve U.S. markets or secure resources for
U.S. businesses. Socialist governments that have been tried have been
attacked(I.e. Nicaragua) and often handicapped by the U.S. leaning on it
until it croaks. The Soviets were even worse, but this was a fault of the
bureaucracy and elite control rather than the concept of equality.
> >face it, folks, our freedom is built on other
peoples > >oppression.
>
>
> I'm certain that's not true, but if it was, tough. A word of advice, you're
> not going to get much mileage singing the wonders of self sacrifice, at least
> not on this list. Altruism is not an Extropian virtue, but on the other hand,
> if you want to give me your place in the lifeboat I won't try to talk you out
> of it.
>
Because Altruism isn an extropian virtue we shouldn practice it? If
humanity is truly going to ascend and take our place in the universe,
a then we need to cultivate a sense of respect and a little bit of
compassion for each other, else the future will be a class war on a
nanogod level.
> >A business is driven to make profits, not make the best
> >product.
>
>
> Yes, a wonderful product is of no use if nobody can afford it.
The thing is, a wonderful product is of use to the few that can afford it.
Like the 358 people that own 45% of the worlds wealth.
>
>
> >They will cut the corners and do everything in their power
> >to keep production costs low as long as it doesn`t undermine
> >consumer interest.
>
>
> Exactly, but you almost make that sound like a bad thing. They are making a
> product that people like as cheaply as they possibly can. Consumers have
> something they like at a price they want to pay, employees have a job,
> stockholders make money, everybody wins.
>
>
> >You`ll notice that the public is only a small minority of
> >people
>
>
> You lost me
Which doesn`t seem too hard.
what I mean is that the markets that most
companies aim to are the affluent. Not a whole lot of demand for electric
toothbrushes outside the Western World.
>
> >While I don`t like union structures, they are necessary
>
>
> Fine, if you want to join a union then join a union, I'm a libertarian and
> wouldn't dream of stopping you.
>
>
> >Governments are villainous, I agree, but not as much as big
> >business. [...] if corporations are going to be this evil.
>
>
> Evil compared to what? States? Governments, those paragons of charity and
> morality, those defenders of the weak and powerless, the source of all virtue,
> have butchered hundreds of millions of people this century alone, often their
> own citizens. Corporations would have to work very hard to break that record.
>
Governments acting in business interests. I hope government will actually
live up to the philosophy behind it, but while the money
flows from elite hands, I doubt it will. Most politician are looking for a
nice cushy CEO job after their term, so of course theyll mess with policy
until their future employers are happy. Look at Indonesia, the government
there is good friends with Nike, Gap, Brie-X etc, and they keep that
friendship by crushing any attempts at labour reform. Good government to
these people means a well-armed riot battalion. It 's very different here,
because the elites have the people in their pocket with misinformation and
propaganda. Business and Government share the same interests:keeping the
elite in power. While I'm not opposed to an elite, I am opposed to it
being a stupid short sighted one. Any elite should look ack at the rest
of the people and aim to educate and improve the rest with their gifts,
not hoard information and power.
> >the government _gets_ its money by forcefully taking it
>
>
> Correct. A corporations may charge more for a product than you want to pay,
> but they don't put a gun to your head and make you buy their "services".
> A corporation may not be willing to pay you what you think your time is worth
They take all of some peoples time and don`t give enough money to feed
them. A farmer not having enough to eat because he is told by the
landowners to grow coffee and tobacco bothers me.
> but they don't enslave you as governments do when they need labor to serve on
> a jury or fight a war. If I tell the government that I'd rather not work for
> them, very soon men will knock on my door and make me an offer I can't refuse.
>
> >The fact that products like the electric toothbrush,
> >disposable diapers, are demanded by the public scares me.
> >[...] Assuming consumers are enlightened enough to know
> >[what is best for them]. This is where that tool of
> >oppression known as mass media comes in. Advertisers can
> >direct the news by controlling what shows they sponsor.
>
>
> What scares me are arguments that the public doesn't know what's best for
> it but the speaker, of course, does, so what is needed is a regularity agency
> for the mass media that has the exact same values that you do and also has
> God's telephone number so it can always tell truth from falsehood and good
> from evil and will never be corrupted by its vast power.
>
Sorry, that came out sort of wrong. No censorship, ever. What I
mean is that media is owned by the elite, so the channels of communication are geared to elite tastes,
with enough electronic prozac to keep the masses from wanting to take the
airwaves back. I think public communication should be open to
the public. Sort of like Ralph Naders proposed Audience Network. If media
continues regurgitating establishment lines, no alternative forums of
thought can be heard, which is good only for the establishment. If we`re
lucky, the internet will alleviate this, but from what I see, nope,
simply because it costs a lot to get on. The same
news is echoed back at us from every major network with the exact same
spin. I have no access to truth(tm) from anywhere.
Do you think the media has the interests of open
discussion in mind? >
> John K Clark johnkc@well.com
>
> > > Davin
>
>
>
> Davin C. Enigl, MS-MEAS, President-Microbiologist
> HACCP Validations-sm Hazard Analysis and Critical Control Points for the
> Food, Cosmetic, Pharmaceutical, and Nutritional Supplement Industry
> Voice: (916) 989-8264, Fax: (916) 989-8205, Pager: (714) 725-7695
> 9040 Erle Blunden Way
> Fair Oaks, CA 95628
> September 30, 1996
> 10:58 am
>
Okay...whew
Suresh Naidu
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