From: Jeff Davis (jrd1415@yahoo.com)
Date: Thu Dec 12 2002 - 22:20:17 MST
--- Lee Corbin <lcorbin@tsoft.com> wrote:
> Jeff writes
>
> > Here:
> >
> > http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/genevacc.htm
> >
> > You will find the text of the
> >
> > AGREEMENT ON THE CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES IN
> VIET-NAM,
> > JULY 20, 1954
> >
> > Here:
> >
> >
>
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/1954-geneva-indochina.html
> >
> > You will find the text of
> >
> > The Final Declaration of The Geneva Conference:
> > On Restoring Peace in Indochina, July 21, 1954
> >
> > And here:
> >
> > http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/vietnam.htm
> >
> > You will find
> >
> > Documents Relating to American Foreign Policy:
> Vietnam
> >
> > More detailed, authentic documentation than you
> ever
> > wanted on the subject of 'the business' in Vietnam
>
> You write this in the spirit of "if only everyone
> would
> just read those documents, then we'd all see nearly
> eye
> to eye, and my truth would be clear to all".
>
> From our earlier conversations, you don't appear to
> be
> able to see that if deep ideological divisions could
> be settled by having a few competent lawyers and
> judges
> hash over all the relevant documents for a few days,
> disputes would not linger on decade after decade,
> generation after generation. But I give up trying
> to
> persuade you of that.
Lee, I am not under any illusion that John or Ron or
you will alter your "deep ideological" convictions.
That will not happen because you suffer from American
holocaust denier's disease. I offer it up because The
Truth is out there, and here it is. Look at it. Know
that others see it and understand it for The Truth
that it is. And that even though the guilty may cover
their eyes, those same murderers and their brainwashed
supporters can nevertheless been seen for what they
are: the agents of a continuing 'conservative'
holocaust.
> You go on,
>
> > (The Geneva Agreements theoretically ended the war
> > between French Union forces and the Vietminh in
> Laos,
> > Cambodia, and Vietnam. These states were to become
> > fully independent countries, with the last-named
> > partitioned near the 17th parallel into two states
> > pending reunification through "free elections" to
> be
> > held by July 20, 1956.
>
> I doubt if you will be able to read that paragraph
> without your own filters on, and of course you
> cannot
> read it with anti-Communist filters on. Those of us
> who are anti-Communists understand what kind of
> elections
> happen in countries without long traditions of
> democratic
> government. It's all about brutal power grabs,
> whether
> by the left or the right.
Talk about your filters, Lee. This is very thin. The
brutal power grab and murderous holocaust that
followed were inflicted by the country with the long
self-congratulatory tradition of 'democratic'
government.
The Viet-minh could have taken the whole country then
and there. The French were beaten. It was they who
sued for peace. They who were desperate for a
face-saving way out. Then the Russians and the
Chineses persuaded Ho to settle on the terms offered.
Terms which were unilaterally violated, not by Ho and
his people, but by the conservative power elite of the
country with the long self-congratulatory tradition of
'democratic' government.
Time to get real, Lee. Anti-communism in its
fudamentalist forms is a sickness, a pathology of
ruthlessness as monstrous (more monstrous if you
consider the record of crimes committed) than the
worst that socialist totalitarianism could ever offer
up.
> > The United States and Vietnam are not signatories
> to these agreements.)
> >
> > Note the last: "The United States and Vietnam are
> not signatories
> > to these agreements."
>
> That's right, but it's irrelevant. In countries
> without
> democratic traditions, a free press and other
> institutions,
> the only choice is what kind of dictatorship it's to
> be.
This is justification at its most forced and absurd.
They couldn't be allowed to vote--to choose for
themselves--because they wouldn't choose correctly.
Oy! That's not the way it works. You vote, you
choose, freely, and then you live with the result,
good or bad.
But this rebuttal, and your objection are misguided.
The unhappy circumstances of a people ruled by
communism is not the reason the Conservatives/power
elite initiated that war. "Saving/rescuing the
Vietnamese people from the 'horrors' of communism was
the ideological jerk-around offered up to the American
population so that the Conservatives/power elite could
pursue their own goals for their own purposes.
Break free from the hackneyed old mythology, and READ
THE DOCUMENTS.
> > Neither the US nor the French-created Vietnamese
> Govt.
> > signed onto the agreement. Thus by one arguable
> > interpretation, neither was bound by the
> agreement.
> > I leave it to the judgement of reasonable people
> to
> > determine whether this was a 'valid loophole'
> Listen, a Communist takeover is no laughing matter,
> Jeff, whether it's in East Germany, North Korea,
> South Korea, Vietnam, China, Russia, Cambodia,
> Cuba, or any of ten other nations I could name.
> People go to the wall. Lots of them.
If this discussion were face to face, you would not
have gotten this far. I would not have let you
embarrass yourself. This anti-communist dogma is a
sickness used to justify mass murder. It is the
madness of killing someone in order to 'save' them.
It is as ridiculous as anything the Taliban or Thuggee
could come up with.
Try freedom instead. Let people make their choices
and live with their mistakes.
> Now then, it can be truthfully stated that takeovers
> by *any* dictator, e.g. a right-wing one, are pretty
> serious affairs too. Indeed, all opposition leaders
> are rounded up and imprisoned or shot. But there is
> a huge difference between the totalitarianism of the
> left and the autocracy of the right, but it would
> take a long time to explain to you why the concept
> "totalitarian" exists.
>
> > or a back door for international mass murderers.
>
> What are you thinking about here? The U.S. or the
> party it supported in Vietnam killing as many people
> as the Communists did? That didn't happen, as you
> should know.
I disagree. And not respecfully. You've had a
lifetime as long as mine to get at The Truth. You've
been shown where to find it. Yet you still deny the
holocaust. Why should you be respected any more than
those other holocaust deniers? Read the documents,
Lee.
> Until you can internalize what Communist regimes
> were really
> like---thank goodness only two prominent ones
> remain)---you
> will continue to be reality-challenged on these
> issues, Jeff.
'Better dead than red" says it all. Kill the patient
to cure the disease. This is NOT rationality.
Read the documents.
Best, Jeff Davis
"While it is not true that all conservatives are
stupid people, it is nevertheless undeniable that
practically all stupid people are conservative."
John Stuart Mill
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