From: Mike Lorrey (mlorrey@yahoo.com)
Date: Wed Nov 06 2002 - 17:38:04 MST
--- Charles Hixson <charleshixsn@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Most of the participants on this list who were defenders, or even
> explicit definers, of some socialist position didn't adhere to that
> centralist doctrine. Some even explicitly rejected all centralist
> examples as examples of socialism.
This is a primary reason why such discussions never seem to conclude.
Adherents of decentralized socialism, in my experience, and in the
recent experience of this list, tend to try to redefine their personal
definition of 'socialism' to a) exclude any real historical examples of
overtly declared socialism which also resulted in gross abrogation of
human rights, and b) include a rather utopic vision, never achieved in
history, of a 'perfect' socialist society, and state that anything
which does not fit their personal definition is not 'really socialism'.
Such individuals also seem to tend to invent personal definitions of
what capitalism is and is not, as well as definitions of many other
words and concepts. It is no wonder they continue to talk past us (and
us them).
For example, one self declared 'socialist' claims on this list that the
act of giving an individual a free market choice whether or not to
purchase one good or service versus another, or foregoing purchasing
altogether is 'initiating force' against that individual. I am at the
point of giving up trying to have any sort of meaningful conversation
with individuals who make such inherently stupid and inane statements.
That such individuals would make such posts to this list marks them as
intentional trolls.
> (This said, in fairness I must admit that there are a few who
> seem to believe that socialism is defined by centralized authorities
> killing large masses of people. Doesn't seem plausible to me, but
> then I'm not asserting that position.)
There is no means of claiming implausibility. Every real example of
self declared 'socialist' nations that has been instituted in history
has resulted in oppression and extermination of dissidents and
scapegoats. We who believe that socialism is defined as you state above
are simply drawing our conclusions from the great teacher of human
history. To claim that the facts of human history are 'implausible' in
no way invalidates the fact that they are real.
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