From: Robert J. Bradbury (bradbury@aeiveos.com)
Date: Wed Oct 16 2002 - 17:20:03 MDT
On Wed, 16 Oct 2002, Samantha Atkins wrote:
(re: my interpretation of Samantha's comments -- we seem to be
on the same side of the fence -- no less than twice in
one week [the other interpretation was offlist]). This
is clear evidence IMO that the extropian list can pull
itself up by its bootstraps and make a reasonable contribution
to the evolution of humanity. We can differ but we can find
common ground. Something to strive for.)
Comments follow:
> Actually, their are memesets, religious and otherwise, that
> promote the view that the world will not be "right" until those
> holding different viewers are overpowered and/or destroyed. It
> is not simply a matter of fundamental human character traits.
> It is not simply an individual phenomenon.
Yes, but the question is whether "individual" phenomena tend to
promote or retard such trends. We know about Hitler, Stalin and
Sadaam -- would you argue that it is better to destroy the societies
that support such megalomaniacs -- or better to destroy the megalomaniacs
themselves?
Where is the core problem -- in the individual or in the society?
> Classic imperialism of all stripes, including Islamic, does not
> seem to be primarily concerned with "uplifting" in physical or
> economic ways.
Agreed. Imperialistic activities seem to be conducted in the
interests of those conducting them. Is there a question as to
whether Sadaam was *not* interested in controlling the oil resources
of Iran or Kuwait when he invaded those countries?
> > Does the problem lie in the quest for power by the leaders instead of
> > the seeking of economic uplifting for the masses?
> >
>
> Excluded middle error?
Quite possibly perhaps.
The slow evolution of Iran over the last decade seems to suggest
that the "excluded middle" may indeed prevail.
> In the face of an imperalistic and exclusive group memeset the
> particular leaders of the moment are not terribly relevant. The
> memeset needs to be rendered harmless or contained.
This seems to suggest that a bio-nano-tech enabled populus will
trump any power seeker (to me). So they can never succeed in the
long term and they might as well give it up now.
*So* debates about the elimination of Osama or Sadaam do not become
explorations of whether their removal is right or wrong but whether
the timing and means of their removal is the most efficient (or extropic).
I want to be clear about this -- they have cast their vote (and made
it very public) -- at that point I strongly question whether others
should grant them the benefit of the doubt.
Robert
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