From: Greg Burch (gregburch@gregburch.net)
Date: Wed Oct 09 2002 - 07:59:52 MDT
I haven't been following the underlying thread after it began, so I
missed the material upon which comment is made here.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cory Przybyla
> Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 9:28 PM
>
> Is there any value to these 2 personal attacks,
> regardless of whether anyone feels they are true or
> not? I'm not posting this solely as an attempt to
> start an argument, for there could be a valid use
> (perhaps as a warning to others who might be duped by
> someone?) to it that I don't see. But if not, then
> perhaps such methods degrade the otherwise valid
> opinions the poster wants to express.
>
> Note: The original post (or the part replied to) is
> attached at the bottom, to which I don't particularly
> see any offensive content in that might invoke such
> responses.
No -- there's no real value to these personal attacks and I think Lee's
out of line. For my brief comments, see below, beyond the asterisks.
> --- Lee Daniel Crocker <lee@piclab.com> wrote:
> > > (Brian Phillips <deepbluehalo@earthlink.net>):
> > > Olga,
> > > Nobody, But Nobody, ever mistakes you for a
> > libertarian of any stripe.
> > > ...
> > > I suspect the libertarians on the list might take
> > you as being less
> > > of a statist-socialist sort not truly interested
> > in meaningful debate if
> > > you didn't constantly chime in with comments whose
> > primary
> > > commonality is envy disguised as principle.
> > > This may be unfair but that is the perception.
> >
> > Nobody mistakes Olga for being a rational person
> > interested in
> > real discussion of issues, either.
> >
> > --
> > Lee Daniel Crocker <lee@piclab.com>
>
> original message
>
> <<Yes, but, sometimes Do It Yourself (akin to Be
> Yourself) is the worst
> advice
> you can give somebody who is Libertarian (i.e., they
> need better PR,
> and
> they need to behave more scrupulously so as not to
> give the Big Bad
> Press a
> stick to hit them with):
>
http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/10/02/offbeat.blue.candidate/index.h
tml
http://www.dawsonspeek.com/archives/000506.php
Speaking as someone who is not a capital "L"
Libertarian, the
perception of
Libertarians from my home planet is that there is a
great "nut" factor
there. This may indeed be unfair, but that is the
perception.
* * *
I'll work backwards -- starting from Olga's comments. She was simply
stating a fact about "her home planet", which I take to be a poetic way
of saying the social and cultural milieu in which she lives. She also
said that the perception she described might be unfair -- a significant
caveat and one that should have insulated her from any attack, and
certainly the kind of words Lee aimed at her.
Beyond this, the substance of what Olga wrote is *important*. The fact
is that libertarians (whether "big 'L'" or "little 'l'") *are* perceived
as "nutty" by the vast majority of people in America, much less in
Europe, where they are perceived as utterly beyond the pale -- if they
get any attention at all. The only way anyone could not be aware of
this would be by being cut off from mainstream culture. If you find
yourself living in a world in which you don't encounter people who find
libertarians at least an odd curiosity, you need to get out more.
Now, I realize that there is a vastly disproportionate measure of
libertarianism among the culture that's grown up around the origins of
cyberspace -- but this culture is practically unique in its lack of
connection to the mainstream world, with its deep grounding in the
cultural and political history of the last two hundred years. Outside
of it, most people assume as a given that a powerful state is a
necessity, that public goods can only be provided by or must be
regulated by that state and that the absence of a such a state would
result in injustice at best and violent chaos at worst. Libertarians
may believe all this is wrong, but heaping scorn on people who express
these ideas does absolutely *nothing* to further the cause of liberty,
since it only acts to further marginalize libertarian ideas.
Greg Burch
Vice-President, Extropy Institute
http://www.gregburch.net
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