From: Camp, Christopher (CCamp@omm.com)
Date: Wed Sep 18 2002 - 12:20:50 MDT
It is quite likely that our definitions of the terms under observation in
this thread - primarily 'safety net' and 'progress' are different.
Progress and safety nets are often fought over terms and given the
contentious nature of debate on this list I can see a tremendous amount of
energy being expended over pinning down the exact meaning of each.
Philosophers have argued for the entirety of human history - in many
apparently contradictory directions about the nature and source of meaning.
If Plato, Aristotle, Frege, Wittgenstein, Quine and countless others in
western philosophy and beyond have failed to create an argument that is
capable of convincing every sane human to hold in esteem the same memes
(with regard to meaning) I doubt that anyone on this list is going to
succeed where so many others have failed.
It is not a question of whether or not it is possible for anyone here to
succeed where billions of human minds have failed. I would not endeavor to
spend the time to construct an argument that claims "It is impossible for
anyone on the extropian list to construct a meme that will be irrefutable by
the sum of all (sane) minds." I do not rule this possibility out I simply
think it unlikely. If we are to spend our time on this list, on this earth
bickering over absolutes that we may likely be incapable of achieving given
our current intellectual resources we may commit ourselves to a manner of
movement and growth that are stunted and inefficient given whatever goals we
may set for ourselves.
What are the goals of the extropian mailing list?
What are the goals of this extropian movement?
I believe the current debate over social safety nets fits squarely within
the bounds of extropian thought. Inspiring the question "How should a
society organize itself such that it can achieve the goals of longer life,
healthier life, meme expansion (seen as access to an ever growing range of
thought), personal and societal safety all while adhering to a set of moral
and ethical standards as defined by the entirety of intelligent life?"
So we, as a mailing list and as extropians are faced with a series of
questions?
What is a safety net?
What historical examples of safety nets are available for study?
Examining the variety of safety nets both current and possible what seems
the best fit for our goals?
Once we have convinced ourselves as extropians of the most efficient safety
net how do we communicate this vision to those outside our circle and have
it be viewed as a viable and victorious political and social option?
To start with I present my view that history and the present moment shows
that safety nets and progress are not entirely incompatible.
Examples of social safety nets -
The welfare system in the united states.
The welfare system in northern Europe - see Sweden, Denmark etc...
Many of us are lucky enough to have family members who would help us out in
a time of need. This help can range from a meal, to a roof over your head
for one night, to much more (a friend of mine recently was given a house by
his parents).
Many of us are lucky enough to have friends who would help us out in a time
of need. This help can again range from a kind word, valuable information
in the form of advice and references for employment or education purposes, a
meal, a loan, etc....
At some level I would think we we be able to collectively admit that
progress has been achieved by at least one of the above mentioned entities
(US, Denmark, those individuals who meet the above criteria for having used
or having access to an informal safety net).
Safety nets seem to be a sort of social phenomena that at some level are
ubiquitous if not always formally organized and recognized.
Are there any examples of governments without safety nets?
Can any of us envision a government or a form of social organization without
any safety net whatsoever? and would this vision be compatible with the
efficient and expeditious achievement of our goals?
Of course there are more questions but this may be a good start...
-----Original Message-----
From: Spudboy100@aol.com [mailto:Spudboy100@aol.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 2002 9:25 AM
To: extropians@extropy.org
Subject: Re: Safety nets (was: Re: hey, don't be sad...)
Dr Graps urged:
<<I don't think that it is a good idea to live one's live in terms of
safety nets, even if we nailed down what definition of safety net we
are using. Progress doesn't take place in a world of safety nets, and
strong personal growth doesn't happen while depending on safety nets
either.>>
I couldn't agree more. Not everyone is cut from the same cloth, or genetic
and cultural stew. If the European way is the better one for a person, and
then re-locate, then more power to them for doing so. Voting with you feet,
is ultimately, the only way to go for some people to live. At least its not
hypocritical.
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