From: gts (gts@optexinc.com)
Date: Tue Sep 17 2002 - 05:56:36 MDT
Lee Corbin wrote:
gts wrote:
> > However, again, I am prepared to defend the notion that internal
> > biological processes are unconsciously motivated behaviors.
>
> We might agree here too, but, I'm afraid, the key question is,
> *whose* unconsciously motivated behavior?
Why is it so bold to claim that *you* have an unconscious motivation to
beat your heart? I gather that you are saying it is too bold. But then,
as you ask, to whom do your unconscious motivations actually belong?
Surely they do not belong to me or to any other of your fellow humans.
The classical answer is that they belong to God (the body is the "temple
of the God") but I hope we can agree that modern science shows that the
motivation to beat the heart belongs to the person.
>> I've been thinking carefully about the "mechanical devices
>> with possible
>> motives," i.e., robots, and here is my conclusion: A robot should be
>> considered an extension of its owner/creator.
>
> Pardon me for interrupting, but I will throw in: if you hold
> a flame near a bimetal strip that is oriented a certain way,
> it will recoil away from the flame. Would you say that it is
> motivated to do this?
No, I would not say the strip is motivated to do this on its own.
However, if you construct a robot that uses this principle, and the
robot acts according to the principle and in a manner you've previously
deemed appropriate, then it is appropriate to say that the robot's
actions were motivated by a desire for the reward experience.
> > So then the behavior of a robot *IS* linked intimately to
> > motivation and driven by the pursuit of the reward experience.
>
> Another question: is it always the case that that which is
> motivated is driven by the pursuit of the reward experience?
Yes. I posit the theory that ultimately we humans do nothing separate
from our pursuit of greater pleasure and happiness (Hedonism, if you
will). I define happiness to include such things as the pleasure of
sexual satisfaction, and the satisfaction that one experiences when
drawing a breath after holding it for some time.
> > the truth is that we are as much physical beings as we are
> > mental beings.) You are your body as much as you are your
> > mind.
>
> Totally disagree, of course.
And that is really puzzling to me. You seem to want to believe that your
body is someone or something other than you.
>.. I and many others on this
> list believe that the brain is only one of many hardware
> devices that could in principle support my mind,
I agree.
> and that
> if it were replaced overnight by an equally suitable device
> then I'd never know. You probably weren't around during our
> interminable discussions of "What if this is a simulation?".
> Most people here seemed to believe that it was possible that
> we would find out that we had all been uploaded without our
> knowledge. Tipler went on about it in his 1992 book "The
> Physics of Immortality".
I have Tipler's book here beside me, waiting for me to read it.
> Though apparently half the cryonicists believe as you do,
> I think that only a minority of the transhumanists or
> extropians do (though I could be wrong).
My impression is that my fellow extropians would probably agree if they
understood my meaning. I am not attempting to imprison the mind in the
biological body. It is my contention only that codification of the human
personality requires codification of the genetic material related to the
brain.
We can in theory dispense with genetic instructions that control, for
example, the healing of wounds. But the genetic instructions that
control our brain are crucial if we hope to keep our personalities
intact.
>>> In any case, I would say that though I would be highly motivated
>>> to beat my heart if I could, I cannot consciously do so and so
>>> therefore we should say that I am not so motivated.
>> Try applying your reasoning above to your breath rather than your
>> heartbeat. Here we see an internal process that you *can* control
>> consciously, and which you will control unconsciously at
>> other times.
>
> Yes, that's true. But you've lost me. So what? :-)
So we see that your argument fails for this example of internal
processes.
Unlike the heart-beat, you *can* consciously breath to stay alive. By
your own argument above you should say that your unconscious will to
breath is motivated by you.
-gts
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