From: Harvey Newstrom (mail@HarveyNewstrom.com)
Date: Mon Sep 16 2002 - 06:09:03 MDT
On Sunday, September 15, 2002, at 11:10 pm, Lee Corbin wrote:
> Any adult with the slightest interest in social developments
> or politics soon becomes acquainted with a most curious
> phenomenon: the almost platonic reality of the left-right
> political spectrum. As soon as you know someone's views on
> a relatively small number of issues, you can correctly infer
> their views on almost all issues. Now what exactly determines
> how someone comes to reside at a particular position on this
> spectrum, and what are the deepest differences in values that
> characterize the different views?
I respectfully disagree that this phenomenon exists at all. The
left-right continuum is totally inadequate to describe most political
views. According to our surveys in the Community Forum on Yahoo, most
of us do not map ourselves onto the left of the right. Most of us
consider ourselves to be libertarian or some other position off this
one-dimensional scale.
I also do not believe that it is possible to predict someone's
viewpoints from a few measurements. This is simply another
stereotype. I find that people who do believe in these stereotypes
are constantly getting into fights and are constantly being accused of
twisting other people's words. Why? Because they really don't listen
or understand what other people are saying. They pigeon-hole people
into their preconceived notions or stereotypes, and then proceed to
argue against the stereotype in their head, regardless of what the
other person might really believe.
> I have tried to start discussions on this topic a number
> of times but with little success.
Since most extropians and transhumanists (according to our surveys)
disagree with the basic assumption of your premise, I doubt you will
get much interest at all. Most of us don't see the world so simply,
so one-dimensionally, or so predictably. We usually pride ourselves
on originality, creative thought, and new ideas. The basic premise of
your question is just "wrong" to most people, it is hard for them to
answer.
Before asking "why" was are all stuck on this one-dimensional
left-right continuum as you claim, perhaps it would be better to ask
whether we even believe this continuum exists or is an accurate
portrayal of anything real. Based on prior surveys, it would seem
that most of us do not.
> But *why* should people
> be reluctant to objectively discuss their political
> differences? God knows that there is no shortage of
> actual political dispute, but except for me on this list
> (or so it seems) no one is interested in examining the
> roots and ultimate reasons *behind* the disagreements.
I think the truth is that we all discuss the roots "behind" these
disagreements all the time. We just disagree on what these roots
are. There are current threads about the roots of IQ, racism,
terrorism, Luddism, religious belief, etc. We have previously delved
into the roots "behind" our desire to live forever, our different
beliefs on the copy question, our different beliefs on cloning, our
different beliefs on the environment, our different beliefs on
spiritual values, etc. I have not perceived any lack of discussion
into root causes behind these things.
I think perhaps you may have disagreed with other people's perceptions
of these root causes, and therefore have dismissed them. Instead of
saying that no one except you is willing to examine the root causes of
things, it might be more accurate to say that no one except you
believes in your particular set of root causes.
> This is because, sadly, most people consciously or not view
> their own position as "right" and all other positions as
> misguided, or ignorant, evilly motivated, uninformed, or
> even stupid. Admit it! Isn't that what you *truly* think
> of those who are always on the other side of every issue
> from you?
This is the biggest problem with all communications today. People are
so sure they are right that they can't imagine other people holding
different beliefs. They always must invent some conspiracy theory to
explain why everyone else is behaving so irrationally. To be honest,
I think you are doing this now. You are trying to come up with a
"reason" why no one else wants to discuss root issues with you. I
think you are assuming that everyone perceives the same root issues as
you do, and have some reason such as fear that prevents them from
discussing. I think a more likely reason is that other people don't
believe in your root causes. Instead of fearing to discuss them,
rather I think they see no reason to discuss what they consider to be
invalid theories.
(Without getting sidetracked, I think group-judgment and racism are
good examples here. You seem to think that people are "afraid" to
discuss these important topics. I rather believe that people don't
care to discuss concepts that they think are invalid. There is a big
difference in root causes behind these actions, and would appear to
you that people are refusing to discuss "your" topic.)
> Is it *impossible* to unearth the unarticulated
> assumptions that underlie each position?
Not at all. I think every person would conclude that they have
already done this. I think all our root assumptions would turn out to
be different. I don't think we will all fall into a simple set of one
or two belief systems. I don't think we can be stereotyped into right
or left or whatever. If we try to discuss these root assumptions, we
find that we don't even agree on what they are. Then we disagree and
argue. I think this happens all the time on this list and leads to
the inevitable heated discussions. We can talk fine in the abstract
about "great things in the future." But when we get to root
assumptions, we have various viewpoints and cannot agree on the basic
underpinnings of reality.
Instead of everybody refusing to discuss these, I think we heatedly
discuss these all the time!
-- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP <www.HarveyNewstrom.com> Principal Security Consultant <www.Newstaff.com>
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