From: Dan Fabulich (dfabulich@warpmail.net)
Date: Wed Sep 11 2002 - 11:28:11 MDT
[This was originally a private response.]
Max More wrote:
> Dan -- I'm not going to get into a detailed philosophical discussion of
> this statement. My priority here is action.
Yes, I knew that. I imagined that the draft statement would go up now,
while other longer term debates waged on the list; the statement, like the
principles, will presumably undergo revision after it has been posted.
> >I notice that "religion" is not included. Is this by design? Are we open
> >to all religions, so long as they agree with most of the principles?
> Yes, by design. The list of qualities are those that *people do not
> choose* and which are irrelevant to being extropian. Religion is chosen.
I understand this view, but you could approach this from another angle: we
might make a statement that we include *all* people who agree with the
principles *regardless of anything else they might also be/believe*.
Thus, we could welcome anyone, of any religion or political party, so long
as they accepted the principles. If being a member of a religion
prevented you from accepting the principles, then we wouldn't welcome you,
but only because you don't accept the principles, not because you rejected
the principles *in favor of religion*.
> >"Age" is not included. Is this by design? Are we open to very young
> >minors?
>
> Yes. All ages are welcome.
Then I think it can't hurt to say so. Eliezer joined in his early
teens... imagine if he hadn't gotten involved with us simply because he'd
thought that the list wasn't open to someone his age!
> >"Proficiency in the English language" is not included. Do we encourage
> >those with poor writing ability or those without a good grasp of the
> >English language to post here?
>
> The statement says nothing about posting to the Extropians list. This has
> its own set of rules. Language is not currently one of them. Nor do I think
> it should be unless it really becomes a problem.
> >"Profession" is not included. "Mental or physical disability" is not
> >included. "Intelligence" is not included.
>
> Okay, maybe we should exclude homeopathic doctors!
> We could certainly add disabilities, though today that seems so obvious
> as not to be worth including.
Actually, I think it would help to let uninformed persons know that we
don't imagine ourselves as ubermensch. You don't have to be part of any
kind of elite group (be it physical, mental, social, hereditary, etc.) to
be welcomed by ExI. We won't reject you because somebody thinks your body
"isn't fit for breeding," like many Aryan groups. A statement like this
can automatically shut out arguments like this.
Remember, the statement of inclusion isn't necessary for the old timers
who know what extropianism is about. It's for the newbies, the casual
viewers, those who couldn't tell us apart from the putatively
"transhumanist" racists. What's obvious to you may not be obvious to
everyone else.
> We don't have to include *every* possible basis of discrimination -- bad
> breath, being grossly overweight (I'm tempted here!), being butt-ugly,
> being rude, etc.
I agree... I really did intend to list only those groups who actually
come to the list, often creating conflict when they do, or those whom
people might ignorantly think we do discriminate against.
-Dan
-unless you love someone-
-nothing else makes any sense-
e.e. cummings
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