From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Tue Aug 27 2002 - 23:30:54 MDT
Damien writes about the difficult issue of objective
commentary vs. implicit values, which I do want to
learn more about.
> At 08:32 PM 8/27/02 -0700, Lee wrote:
>
>> On the one hand, I totally agree with Spike that
>> our goal must be careful objective reporting.
>> (Commentary not merely expressing facts or a
>> factual account of, say, history, must be
>> explicitly labeled as such.)
>
> To the extent that this is possible or even meaningful, sure, of course. If
> 16 zillion Martians were nuked by the Atlanteans, it is important not to
> claim erroneously that only 5 zillion were, or that 120 zillion were. But
> beyond that kind of quibbling, we know the Atlanteans had no other choice,
> don't we, because the Martians are such disgusting slimy creatures;
> naturally nobody will mention this perfectly objective value judgement in
> their reports to the Proceedings, it's self evident.
I understand that you are being admirably satiric here (or
sardonic, or whatever it is). But literally, no, we don't
know whether the Atlanteans had no other choice or not.
Yes; the internal workings of the Atlanteans obey the laws
of physics---in that sense, we can blame them no more than
we blame a bomb for exploding.
> >On the other hand, yes, some people will be aghast at the
> >way that Burke and others---like people here on this list
> >---will calmly describe the raping of the Earth and other
> >horrendous deeds without extreme indignation. Perhaps you
> >are saying that the mere absence of indignation while
> >describing something is itself a political statement?
>
> I'm saying that even putting the matter that way embodies a political
> statement.
Sorry. I was perhaps confusing the issue. Indeed I agree:
to say "raping the Earth" is clearly expressing one's values.
> But wait, what is this `raping of the Earth'? Material is being
> relocated, modified, marketed. It's just like `raping of a human'.
> Nothing to see, folks, move right along. Just the motion of some
> particles inside the boundary of some other particles. This is
> science. Quant suff!
>From *some* people's point of view, yes, it's very wicked.
Are Spike and I wrong for calling for *some* reporting to
be value-neutral?
> >If so, I don't agree. One should be able to read some
> >reports of terrible tragedies---say the Nazi Holocaust
> >---without the inevitable sermonizing.
>
> Calling these objective events `terrible' and `tragic' is disgraceful
> sermonizing. Let us just count the bones and get on with the proper
> business of value-free science.
You are trying to tell me something important here; but I
don't quite understand what. Are you saying that it is
incumbent upon one to interweave approval or disapproval
in all of one's descriptions of events?
As for science, could you explain why it can't be looked
at as "value-free"? Maybe I've got too little imagination
or too much, but I could even see descriptions of satanic
worship or chants or theology as value free. "God did this
and then Satan did that", and "if you do this, then people's
eyes will turn into toads", and "When the Lord Goldry Bluszco
understood that the Red Foliot would pay no heed to his accusation,
he grew read as blood. A fearsome sight it was to behold how he
swelled in his wrath, and his eyes blazed like disastrous stars
at midnight, and being wood with anger he gnashed his teeth till
the froth stood at his lips and slavered down his chin. Now the
cymbals clashed for the onset. Therewith ran Goldry upon the King
as one straught of his wits, bellowing as he ran, and griped him
by the right arm with both his hands, one at the wrist and one
near the shoulder. And so it was that, before the King might
move, Goldry spun round with his back to the King and by his
mickle strength and the strength of the anger that was in him he
heaved the King over his head, hurling him as one hurleth a
ponderous spear, head-foremost to the earth. And the King smote
the ground with his head, and the bones of his head and his spine
were driven together and smashed, and blood flowed from his ears
and nose." (From "The Worm Ouroboros", Chapter II, The Wrastling
for Demonland.) If that isn't value free, then I don't know what
is.
Lee
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Nov 02 2002 - 09:16:27 MST