From: Adrian Tymes (wingcat@pacbell.net)
Date: Wed Aug 21 2002 - 21:40:35 MDT
Samantha Tennison wrote:
> Adrian Tymes wrote:
> ""See McCarthyism, Watergate, Vietnam War, et cetera.
> The historical trend is that eventually someone goes
> Too Far and it gets publicized, at which time the
> American public (often violently) shifts things back
> towards liberty.""
>
> I can only hope you're right. However I think several
> aspects of what's currently happening are entirely new
> and unprecedented that could prevent a similar
> backlash from occuring this time:
>
> 1. We are an "indefinite" war without a clear enemy
> and no clear criteria for what might end this war -
> thus its indefinite nature.
Although I will admit I did not witness it myself, I'm told the Vietnam
War was considerably murkier than our present one on both counts. In
addition, if and when we can successfully shift away from a
petroleum-based economy, our enemies will abruptly have much less power;
there was no equivalent (widely known) hope for a solution through
technology in Vietnam.
> 2. The largest revision and expansion of surveillance
> and executive powers in US History - lifting all
> previous bans, including the elimination of 4th
> ammendment protections - granting the massive US
> surveillance machine to spy on americans. Imagine
> what they were able to do with just the FBI going
> after dissent in your above examples. Now imagine the
> entire US surviellance apparatus with unprecendented
> levels of technology doing it this time.
Imagine being locked away for life for giving the politically wrong
answer to, "Are you now, or have you ever been, a member of the group
we don't like?" Ashcroft is a wannabe Hoover - "wannabe" mainly because
the media and courts are on guard for a repeat.
> 3. Erosion of the seperation of powers. Will become
> almost non-existent if Bush is granted his "broad new
> powers" that he is requesting.
Err...I don't see anything in his requests that would abolish Congress
or the Supreme Court. And if he really steps this up, look for the
Supremes to look for a quick excuse to say "Uh-uh, sorry, oh and anyone
enforcing your orders which we've declared illegal is guilty of
innumerable felonies."
> 4. Internment and loss of constitutional rights for
> ordinary americans - with the Padilla case, obviously
> engineered and fabricated to set the legal precedent.
Yep. And watch the courts doing everything they can to set the
precedent *away* from said practice having even a shred of legitimacy
when applied to ordinary Americans.
> 5. Erosion or outright elimination of the Pssse
> Cumatus laws preventing US Troops to be actively
> engaged in domestic law enforcement.
The only real danger here would seem to be some military people trying
to apply military law to civilian situations. Count the seconds for the
courts to overrule this once it reaches court.
> 6. The creation of an American Stasi - Operation TIPS
> - rumored to be going forward, curcumventing
> congressional approval by tieing it in with 'America's
> Most Wanted' TV Program. Some people having already
> joked about renamine the program, 'Americans Most
> Unpatriotic'.
TIPS...this would be the group that reports people videotaping bridges,
casing public joints, et cetera, much like some of the new Homeland
Security agencies are already doing so they can find out what the
terrorists could find out, right? So, how long before TIPS-informed law
enforcement officials and HS start going after each other? (#include
any of the classic "wannabe hero cop busts a sting operation" scenes
from police and vigilante dramas.)
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