From: Sabine Atkins (sabine@posthuman.com)
Date: Tue Aug 20 2002 - 15:04:23 MDT
Michael Shermer posts both agreeing and disagreeing feedbacks regarding
his SciAm column on cryonics.
--
Sabine Atkins,
http://www.posthuman.com/
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: E-SKEPTIC: ART OF THE HOAX/SCIENCE FRAUD/CRYONICS FEEDBACK
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 13:51:26 -0700
From: E-Skeptic <skeptic-admin@lyris.net>
Reply-To: E-Skeptic <SkepticMag@aol.com>
To: "Skeptics Society" <skeptics@lyris.net>
E-SKEPTIC FOR AUGUST 20, 2002
Copyright 2002 Michael Shermer, Skeptics Society, Skeptic magazine,
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---------------------------------
THE ART OF THE HOAX
Check out this week's special double issue of U.S. News and World Report at
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/020826/home.htm
It's a terrific collection of articles, references, links, sidebars, etc.,
all on the art of the hoax.
---------------------
SCIENCE FRAUD
I wanted to let everyone know that Vol. 7, #1 of Skeptic, which has been out
of print for some time, has now been reprinted and we have copies in stock.
The cover story was on fraud in science by historian of science Dan Kevles,
focusing on the famous Baltimore affair involving David Baltimore. We also
have a wonderful interview with psychologist Carol Tavris, and a useful
article on complementary and alternative medicine. You can order the
issue at
www.skeptic.com by clicking through the order program. Very simple.
Soon to come: reprints of Vol. 1, #4 on witchcraft, and Vol. 2, #4 on
Pseudohistory and Holocaust revisionism.
Contents of Skeptic Vol. 7, #1
* Educashun: In The Trenches Of The Culture Wars by Steven T. Asma
* The Measure of a Woman: An Interview with Social Scientist Carol Tavris
by Michael Shermer
* Fraud and Science: Reflections on the Baltimore Case by Daniel J. Kevles
* Complementary Alternative Medicine: Boon Or Boondoggle? The battle
between Allopathic Medical Care (TAM) system and the Complementary
Alternative Medical Care (CAM) system by Harry K. Ziel, M.D.
* Christian Science and the Perversion of Quantum Physics by Robert L.
Miller
* Special Section: Influence
* Selection For Credulity: A Biologist's View of Belief by Ken Parejko
* Legitimatizing Psychology's Prodigal Son: Re-considering Hypnosis
for the
21st Century by Barry F. Seidman
* Blue Smoke, Mirrors, and Designer Science: How the Public Relations
Industry Compromises Democracy by Brian Siano
* The Game of Influence: Understanding the Hidden Dynamics of
Communication
by David A. Brenders
* The Knowledge Filter: Reality Must Take Precedence in the Search for
Truth by Michael Shermer
------------
CRYONICS READER FEEDBACK
I received a number of interesting letters regarding the letter from Steve
Harris about cryonics from an earlier e-Skeptic posting. Given that this is
still a hot topic (or should that be "cold") I thought you all might enjoy
these.
-----
Until the recent Ted Williams debate over whether his corpse should go
the way of fire or the way of ice, we have not heard much about cryonics.
The reason for this, in my view, is obvious:
While many are cold, few are frozen.
Edwin.
----------
I'm with you on this, Michael. And if we're wrong we'll never have to admit
it!
Robert A Forde, raforde@blueyonder.co.uk
----------
Well, if Steve Harris also wants to believe in the tooth fairy, the great
pumpkin, the easter bunny and even leprechauns, I suppose that's his right.
But to imply you were having a bad day when you dissed the idea of cryonic
suspension - well, more power to him in his delusions, but I personally
think the liklihood of humankind figuring out how to resurrect someone from
the dead, frozen or not, is a long, long, L*O*N*G way in our future. We'll
see that happen about the same time someone finally corrals that damn
leprechaun long enough to actually recover the little twerp's pot 'o gold!
Bill Mayers, advham@hotmail.com
-----------
A friend once asked why copying yourself wasn't an option in Star Trek,
using
transporter/replicator technology? He went on to explain that any technical
objections were overcome by various little tricks or devices that had
furthered one or another plotline. How come there weren't lots of copies
walking around? Poor soul. He was serious.
I told him that he had hit upon something that enraged me about Star
Trek--if
you take the technology they have (in the imaginary world where millions
spend much of their inner lives) they would never face the kind of problems
that drive the plot. They (the imaginary ones) can readily transform matter
into energy and vice versa, without blowing themselves up or worrying about
radioactivity,heat,or light; they have small devices in their rooms that can
safely handle huge energies and actually squeeze it into matter (Earl Grey
tea, w/ cup&saucer, etc.), without killing anyone or making the slightest
mess. Silently.
Jayzoo! Apparently, they've got a cheap source of antimatter! They can say
that sensors read exactly two (or 200,759) human life-forms on a planet a
light-year away, with a straight face! But I digress. Of course, I told
him,
you could copy yourself, given the givens.
Unfortunately, you'd be killed in the process. In fact, that's what the
transporter basically would do--you step into the thing, it dematerializes
you, which is unavoidably fatal, then your body is sent, by one or another
unlikely means, to somewhere else, where a perfect copy of it, down to the
energy state, velocity, and location of every single one of your particles
(see the problem?) is materialized without blinding, maiming, or offending
any one at the other end, without so much as strange odor to inconvenience
anyone, in fact. The copy is so good, it is not only Not dead, comatose, or
even confused--he or she posesses a lifetime's memories, just like yours,
and believes his or herself to be you.
But, you, you died a few seconds ago, just as this replacement will die
when
it gets beamed somewhere else. Just because each copy enjoys the
illusion of
being you, saying, "Oh no, I'm okay, didn't die on the transporter pad or
anything, it's really me;" that won't make you any less dead. Unless you
want to posit some immaterial free-lunch such as an immortal soul, I say
that
such a suicidal mode of travel ain't gonna be very popular. And who says
the soul would catch on that you wanted it to meet you at the other end?
The same circumstance applies to the cryonically-frozen dead.
a) They are dead.
b) That's it in a nutshell.
c) But apparently some people don't grasp the b) of a). If yet-to-be
imagined (!) means of reversing the effects of life, disease, death, and
frozen storage enable someone someday to restore these low-temp lazuri to
metabolism with fairly intact memory and full mental function, still no dead
person will come back to life.
Even if there's any basis for the extreme optimism of the cryogenic
customers, the most they can hope for is that some day someone uncannily
just
like them may be thawed. That's the best case.
Less favorable outcomes include:
Canisters buried in earthquake are discovered by highly advanced
25th-century
civilization. Contents are...spoiled. Experts morbidly believe they have
uncovered evidence of highly advanced 21st-century cannibalism.
Ted Williams makes it but can only understand concepts pertaining to lawn
care.
"You" are revived by your seven-thousand year old accountant, who tells
"you"
about the anti-aging therapy discovered just weeks after you were frozen.
Also, your estate is still in probate, by the way, you're 340 million
dollars
in debt, but you can clear that up in two, three centuries, if you don't get
assigned to the mines. Luckily, you--the original you, are still dead.
whatnowharley@att.net
------------
With regards to your statements about Cryonics. Not all of us are
transhumanists or religious fanatics, in fact probably three quarters or
more
are not. I am an engineer and do not really follow the Transhumanist
philosophy. I will be frozen for purely practical reasons. To see if such a
grand experiment will work. Actually I appreciate much of what you have to
say in your list messages. But after rereading your Cryonics diatribe, you
(even though you most likely are not) come off as arrogant and
condescending.
While I may not accept the
Transhumanist position, they do deserve some repsect for their position and
it is
disrespectful to others to assume that just because some in Cryonics think
this way, that we all do likewise.
What can be more irrational than destroying one's body upon death when we
may be on the verge of postponing such processes in the future. Most people
may spend upwards of $20,000 on funerals, would you be just as condescending
to them for their love ones who may honor their wishes to be permanently
destroyed forever. Until we completely understand what this thing is called
life, and when death occurs, an intelligent discussion of the situation
should
be engaged in, not flippant criticism of people who are devoting their
resources
to the study of the process of life and death. Most of Cryonics is about
research into the aging process and its slowing. Preservation is just one
part of the process, you make its sound like only fanatics choose to be
suspended.
Gerry Arthus
Systems Administrator
Long Island Library Resources Council
SUNY at Stony Brook
Stony Brook, New York
------------
Steve Harris is certainly correct that the probability is nonzero that one
day we will be able to reanimate frozen corpses. I share his naive faith
that science will solve this puzzle. However, I wonder what value he puts on
P6: Probability that anybody in the best of futures, will be interested,
resourceful, and nice enough to use the technology on you.
I suspect the answer reflects one's own ego and dreams of immortality rather
than an honest estimation. Surely the historians of the future will have
other means available to them? Terabytes and petabytes of archived
newspapers, radio, and television, for instance? Surely they will view with
skepticism the historical and political insights of someone egotistical
enough use cryonics on himself, someone who, as a member of the richest few
percent of the richest societies on earth, is by definition not a
representative sample of our population?
However, I write not to question the bloated egos of the cryonauts, but
their ethics. Surely it has come to everyone's attention by now that we face
a population crisis on this planet, that food, water, and energy are in
short supply, and that environmental problems threaten us all? The process
of freezing a human body and maintaining that state in a vat of liquid
nitrogen is energy intensive and very expensive. I have a boundless
curiosity and long to see what a future society capable of re-animating me
would be like. However, I would rather see my hundred grand go to
environmental protection and family planning clinics in the third world than
to "entrepreneurs" who will spend it mainly on electricity, thereby
generating greenhouse gases and other pollutants.
I hope that when my time comes, I will be brave enough to worry more about
my world and my fellow humans than about my own remains and my
well-preserved ego.
Peter C.S. Adams, Boston, Mass.
---------------
Hi Michael, both your expanded column and Steve Harris' rebuttal were quite
thought-provoking. I was especially interested in Dr. Harris' statement
that synapses remain intact for several hours after death.
James H. Schmitz, the late science fiction author, wrote in his Federation
of the Hub series about "dead-braining" corpses. This was a method of
"reading" the information stored in the brains of recently deceased
individuals (usually the bad guys). I never though this was even likely,
let alone possible, but...
Thanks for the interesting message.
If you quote/post this comment, please leave my name off. Thanks.
-------------
I'm thinking that in order to get even a CRACK at the forbiddingly expensive
(understatement) task of being unfrozen, repaired cell-by-cell, and
reanimated,
one must, in this life, become so, er, interesting, that is, become such a
legend, that ANY future generation would WANT to reanimate you at whatever
cost.
And dig this (as in, What I saw behind the mushrooms at the anti-Apartheid
demonstration): Just imagine coming back even 200 years from now, what a
culture shock that would be! How on EARTH would you support yourself? You
couldn't
except by being a novelty. Any more than three or four hundred years,
and your
language skills will be so outdated that you'll be speaking what Latin is
today
(unless 20th century English somehow becomes preserved as Latin has been).
I finally grabbed a Korean medical student and we tossed a soccer ball back
and
forth as if to change the subject (and his Korean eyes were on each of the
ball's panels as it flickered toward me each time: no amount of
concentration
would make that one go away as one shakes one's head to make the
remnants of a
bad dream go away). This was because I realized that eventually there
will be
nothing -- here, or anywhere -- with which we might survive (forget about
companionship, really, by even going through the process).
Finally, when I felt my chest tighten up into a knot, I tried my pulse but
couldn't find it. And the medical student wouldn't touch it, either!
"You came
on this campus a few months ago like a wandering prophet of reality," he
told
me, knowing the oxymoronic truth wouldn't go over my head, even at that
stage.
"Just look at all you've taught us! What you have brought to us did not
stop
at
the ears of your direct listeners, but is being discussed even in your
absence,
in the library, the halls, the dorms, and even the classrooms," he
urged. "All
that you've taught us about life -- all that you've said about death --" (I
don't even remember *that*) "-- all this, and you're now telling me you're
afraid to die? Oh, no, don't give me *that*!"
I'm glad he said that, because it brought me back from a wicked state of
funk
that I often find myself exploring, probably due to a depressive
disorder. But
most of all, I hope that he and those of whom he spoke eventually
learned to
see
that behind whatever mask they had placed over my face -- indeed, my very
identity -- I certainly hope that they, like I, have learned to see the
human
behind the legend, the human who is lonely, troubled, yes, fragile -- the
human
who, being human, has a reflexive fear of dying that only some learn how to
transcend: the rest achieve some semblance of that through religion.
Unfortunately for me, unfortunately for religion's prospects for becoming
universally accepted, unfortunately for humankind's prospects for getting
along,
untranscended majority, a few of us simply cannot buy that claim: not no
how,
not no way.
Cliff Walker
"Positive Atheism" Magazine
P.O. Box 16811
Portland, OR 97292
http://www.PositiveAtheism.org/
editor@PositiveAtheism.org
----------
First off, okay, I accept the possibility that dead in
a freezer is very likely the equivalent of being dead
in a coffin (having worked in the funeral industry,
I'm wondering whether the costs are somewhat similar
for both ;-) ), but hey, even if the odds against
revival are staggering, it's still a chance, isn't it?
If it works, great. If it doesn't, I won't be any
more dead than I already am, right?
The other thing I wanted to mention is a comic book.
Yes, a comic book, please bear with me. It's written
by a fellow named Warren Ellis and it's called
Transmetropolitan. It's set in the future, date
indeterminate, where literally everything promised by
science today is possible, but holds that people will
still often be greedy, ignorant, and largely
unchanged. One of the stories done in the series
follows a group of people called the Revivals.
Essentially, the Revivals are the people who were
frozen in our time, and were grudgingly restored, more
out of a sense of contractual obligation than anything
else.
The main problem that the Revivals had to face was,
basically, that they for the most part were unable to
cope with the future that they found themselves in. A
simple act like looking out of a window sent them into
a state of mild shock. Or extreme culture shock, if you will.
My point? Maybe cryonics can work, but what if the
future ain't all it's cracked up to be?
John J. Roe, Tempe, AZ
------------
A few comments: For the record, one cannot get DNA out of dinosaur
bones-- the alleged dinosaur DNA turned out to be contaminating and
degraded human DNA. DNA simply isn't stable enough under geological
conditions and probably wouldn't survive natural interstellar transport
either, so temporal and spatial panspermia are probably out. DNA might
survive long enough in the solar environment if encased in rock to
survive interplanetary transport. So we all may be Martians <G>.
While a few viable cells can be gotten from the brains of corpses, these
are not necessarily neurons and in any case, networks of neurons, not
isolated cells store memories according to current theories.
Irreversible brain damage including loss of memory occurs within minutes
of anoxia.
I would take cryonics more seriously when nanotech, about which in its
Drexlerian mode I am skeptical, solves the problem of avoiding damage
during the freezing stage as well as the thawing.
I must admit that when I think of cryonics, I also think of SF writers
who suggest that future cultures might view corpsicles as convenient
sources of protein.
--john, jhchalmers@ucsd.edu
-------------
As one who has seen what frozen meat looks like when it's thawed and one who
has studied probability and statistics, finite mathematics, stochastic and
Markovian models, I did not find Mr. Harris's response particularly
attractive. The brain is organic tissue and therefore subject to all the
constraints thereto. To consider seriously the probability that the
configurations and pathways of ceberal matter could survive the process of
hematolization that frozen tissue endures reveals an overly optomisitic
hope,
in my view. In fact, the mindset of those who seek cryonic preservation is
much more interesting than the process itself. I see the same kind of
emotional need being expressed by others who cling tenaciously to the notion
of survival of our individuality after death, which is a basic tenet of
religious idealogy. As you, and countless others have pointed out, these
views are not consistent with the scientific viewpoint.
I must commend you for being straightforward. The Basque-Irish side of
myself has always seen a more sinister, "rip-off" in the pseudo-scientific
sale point of the cryonic industry, which although small in scale, is in
business to provide a service which is dubious.
Perhaps one of the most important messages of the Skeptic Society should be
that of the early Roman skeptic who etched the words, caveat emptor over the
gates to the Forum. In fact, my dad, who instilled the skeptical spirit in
me, loved to tell the story of the man walking through the graveyard and
seeing a headstone that was inscribed, "NOT DEAD. JUST SLEEPING," remarked,
"Mister, you ain't shitting no one but yourself."
Frank P. Araujo
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