From: Lee Corbin (lcorbin@tsoft.com)
Date: Fri Aug 16 2002 - 09:52:24 MDT
Mike Wiik writes
> As to Gatto, maybe he's from Prussia. Perhaps Gatto's theory would be less
> threatening if we examined first a Prussian model for society instead of
> simplistically writing off Gatto as another wacko conspiracy theorist, a view
> Mr Corbin continues to harp.
I agree that his description of Prussian history sounds all right.
(Thank you for focusing the discussion on a particular chapter for
this email. http://www.johntaylorgatto.com/chapters/7a.htm)
I really couldn't offer an opinion about how realistic are the
effects he portrays upon German children. I am aware of significant
and reliable differences between German and American psychology, at
least up until the last few decades. (I think that today's Germans,
for example, are less obedient than formerly.)
But I dispute his view of the malleability of Americans in general,
even American children. There is a kind of inborn (though cultural)
stubborn resistance. American school children, at least until very
recently, have had more of a tendency to take schools and teachers
very much less seriously than do children in other advanced nations.
Gatto's inferences may be quite mistaken.
"Equally impressive, he [Mann] wrote, was the wonderful obedience
of children; these German kinder had "innate respect for superior
years." The German teacher corps? "The finest collection of men
I have ever seen—full of intelligence, dignity, benevolence, kind-
ness and bearing...." Never, says Mann, did he witness "an instance
of harshness and severity. All is kind, encouraging, animating,
sympathizing." On the basis of imagining this miraculous vision
of exactly the Prussia he wanted to see, Mann...
So the author is evidently aware that there may be some differences
between Germans and Americans (I actually mean all the English
speaking peoples in this email when I write "Americans", but (a)
Californians are the people I have most familiarity with (b) the
title of this thread concerns American education). But
it looks as though he still smoothly continues his views that
American children are easily indoctrinated, which I think is
incorrect.
> I suggest that those interested read the chapter before reading Mr Corbin's
> inevitable reply, which it seems to me (based on experience with his debating
> style so far), will involve picking out the most volatile sentence from this
> chapter, strip it of all context, and twist it to use as yet more evidence
> that Gatto is a wacko conspiracy theorist. (Reviewing Robert Anton Wilson's
> essay on 'The Thinker and the Prover' in _Prometheus Rising_ may also help in
> parsing whatever Mr Corbin will say next.)
Hmm, doesn't sound like you're especially eager to get any further
criticism of Mr. Gatto and his theories. Which would you prefer
instead: (a) eager endorsement, or (b) complete silence?
> lcorbin@tsoft.com once again made one of his trademark valuable
> contributions to this thread with his incisive riposte:
>
> > Gigantic indoctrination machine? Robbing people of their
> > children? Is he from Earth?
That was the very last line of my 11 kilobyte post! All the
rest of it was substantial, with several quotes from Gatto's
book. May I not be allowed at least one good slam?
> Perhaps other extropians can understand my excitement at this
> exposure to what was then (at least among my colleagues and
> friends) extremely radical ideas, as well as my frustration
> in getting reactions similar to Mr Corbin's statement above
> when I tried to talk about such.
Listen, I really am sorry to have to disagree with you about
the value of John Taylor Gatto's views. Perhaps you're not
so used to the kind of rather robust exchanges occurring here?
You should be. You've been on this list for a long time.
I think that it's great that you are excited by the book, and
I certainly don't want to discourage you from reading further
(as if I could), nor do I wish to discourage anyone. Surely
you'll admit that our repeated exchanges have brought more
attention to the URLs you've posted.
And if your remarks pass for what is ad hominem on this list :-)
then rumors of flame wars, trolling, and loss of civility
are, as I have been claiming, greatly exaggerated.
Mr Corbin
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Sat Nov 02 2002 - 09:16:10 MST