From: Dickey, Michael F (michael_f_dickey@groton.pfizer.com)
Date: Wed Aug 14 2002 - 11:31:41 MDT
Anders said -
"We can debate relative influence of philosophers, but the fact remains
that communism was developed from strands of thoughts stretching through
western philosophy."
I would, of course, disagree. The core of 'western' ideaologies, such
things as freedom, tolerance, respect for individuals, property rights, is
not compatible with communism. When you compare Plato and Aristotles
writings and influences on modern politics and states, Aristotle's results
much more so in our modern concept of 'western' ideaologies, as mentioned
above. Plato's, by contrast, result in communism. You assert that because
both of these came from greece, they are indeed 'western' idealogies
"Much of Aristotle's political writing was a retort to Plato's republic. He
believed that Plato's communism -- the elite holding everything in common --
was impossible. He wrote that property owned in common received less
attention than property owned by an individual. Men, he wrote, care most
for their private possessions. "
from - http://www.fsmitha.com/h1/ch10.htm
"Plato advocated communal living for the ruling class to prevent conflicts
of interest. "
"Aristotle and Democritus defended property rights for all classes to
strengthen incentives, charity, prevent "tragedy of commons"
from - http://hsb.baylor.edu/html/gardner/LECOUT04.DOC.
We can all find web sites supporting our viewpoints, but if we are arguing
if communism is a western idealogy, we must first define what 'western'
means. If your definition of western is so broad as to include *anything*
influenced by 'western' people, (e.g. communism and democracy), then
everything is western, since no part of society has been completely immune
from western ideals including but not limited to science (Islam is based on
the old testament, after all, so even that could be considered 'western' by
your definition) It makes the use of such a designation meaningless. Most
contemporary uses of western refer to ideals such as those mentioned above,
including democracy, freedom, suffrage, property rights, market economies,
etc.
Michael
-----Original Message-----
From: Anders Sandberg [mailto:asa@nada.kth.se]
Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 7:36 PM
To: extropians@extropy.org
Subject: Re: globalization of fear
On Tue, Aug 13, 2002 at 01:27:11PM -0400, Dickey, Michael F wrote:
>
> Plato was also quite at odds with other greek philosophers, including
> Democritus and Aristotle. Plato ensured virtually none of Democritus
books
> survived. Plato and Aristotle were quite at odds with their world views,
if
> communsim is more based in Plato's republic idealogy of the elite ruling
> class then Aristotle's idealogies are to the opposite extreme. Not to
> mention the fact that even Ancient greece, the cradle of western
> civilaztion, did not embrace Plato's idealogies, instead we see it as the
> home of democracy. So whats more 'western', communism or democracy?
> Considering modern scientific inquiry is based aristolean logic, Id see
> Aristotle had far more influence on what is 'western' than Plato.
>From http://www.bedfordstmartins.com/litlinks/critical/plato.htm (just
selecting one philosophy page at random):
Plato (ca. 427-347 B.C.). The student of Socrates and the
teacher of Aristotle, Plato is singularly the most revered
thinker in Western civilization. As Alfred North Whitehead
stated, "All of Western philosophy is but a footnote to Plato
... his shadow falls over all of Western thought." Most of the
historically significant issues with which philosophy has been
concerned - the nature of being, the question of how we know
things, the purposes of right action, the structure of an
ordered society, the meaning of love and beauty - were issues
that he raised.
Sure, Aristotele has contributed a lot to science the last 500 years.
But Platonic idealism has had a profound influence on Christianity and
political philosophy, for nearly 2500 years. That Greece did not turn
into platonic republics does not tell us much, since the whole
eccleastical and mundane structure of the middle ages and onwards were
based on parts of his blueprint.
We can debate relative influence of philosophers, but the fact remains
that communism was developed from strands of thoughts stretching through
western philosophy. It is just as western as the enlightenment ideas.
Not that it matter whose fault it is. Bad ideas should be dismantled
regardless of pedigree.
-- ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension! asa@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/ GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y LEGAL NOTICE Unless expressly stated otherwise, this message is confidential and may be privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. Access to this E-mail by anyone else is unauthorized. If you are not an addressee, any disclosure or copying of the contents of this E-mail or any action taken (or not taken) in reliance on it is unauthorized and may be unlawful. If you are not an addressee, please inform the sender immediately.
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