From: Max More (max@maxmore.com)
Date: Sat Aug 10 2002 - 22:38:55 MDT
At 04:29 PM 8/10/2002 +0100, Steve Nichols wrote:
>OK Natasha, if you wish to keep demarcations .... I am prepared to swap
>extropia.net for the posthuman.com
>domains.
>
>I think it is a great hypocrisy coming from an organisation that does (or
>use to) run an ezine called "Posthuman Lounge."
First, this is the first I have heard of this (your reply appears to be to
a private email of Natasha's) and I don't believe that Natasha was speaking
for anyone buy herself. Second, Extropy Institute (who I presume you are
referring to) has never run an email list called "Posthuman Lounge".
>On the subject of "misrepresentations." ... it is the Extropian/ trans
>notion of "Posthuman" as some non-attainable future
>state who actually are misrepresenting the term. For correct understanding
>see http://www.multi.co.uk/identity.htm
You have your own understanding of "posthuman", though the page you refer
to does not provide a clear definition or conception. We are not
"misrepresenting" the term. No standard definition exists, but I would (and
have) argued that the usual extropian use of the term "posthuman" makes
good sense. Your claim to be posthuman now makes no sense to me, and even
raises concern of fraud if you are using this idea to sell "MVT Therapy".
In addition, how can you so rigidly argue that your understanding is RIGHT
and ours WRONG, yet also say:
>As a philosophical idealist I think !everything! is subjective.
By the way, idealism does *not* necessarily imply subjectivism (whether
metaphysical or epistemological, between which you don't seem to
distinguish). It sounds like you are actually a solipsist.
Since I don't plan on writing on this again, I'll now comment on two other
things on that page:
>The adoption of a neutral 'non-label' (posthuman/neo/X-) implies just that
>the next step in evolution is 'after', and embodies no value judgements. I
>wish to make it clear that I do not think that persuading yourself that
>you are post-human will necessarily lead to any 'special powers' (but I am
>not ruling that out either).
Your last comment implies that you actually think this is quite likely.
Which special powers do you think it most likely someone could gain from
persuading yourself that you are posthuman? (I don't count delusion as a
special power.)
>"TRANShumans" and "Extropians" (if they differentiate themselves from the
>human-norm at all) are examples of post/after-human variants, since trans
>& ex-humans are claiming to be evolved out of/ after humans. So POST-human
>is the wider and inclusive category.
I think it is confusing and confused to equate "transhumans" and
"Extropians" as examples of post-human variants. "Extropian" refers to the
acceptance and use of a philosophical framework, not to a belief about
whether one has become more than/other than human.
The term "transhuman" has no universally agreed definition, so I speak only
for myself. First, sensible usage and usage consistent with other
terminology suggests cleanly separating "transhuman" from "transhumanist".
It is entirely reasonable to put "Extropian" and "Transhumanist" together
in many discussions, since the first is a particular version of the second.
Transhumanity comes in many stages from very early or mild changes all the
way into clearly posthuman. I won't object to saying that posthuman
includes much of transhuman. But it's just as true that human includes much
of transhuman.
>As for the title, I prefer to keep a fairly abstract heading, but already
>have the subheading "Official Journal of the Post-Human Movement"
Who are the Officials who made this "official"? If someone else wants to
start a publication, does this mean you have the authority to shut them
down? Perhaps "original" might be more defensible than "official".
I found your message, beginning with a false accusation and peppered with
philosophical errors, frustrating. I am replying here to clarify issues for
those unfamiliar with these distinctions.
Max
_______________________________________________________
Max More, Ph.D.
max@maxmore.com or more@extropy.org
http://www.maxmore.com
Strategic Philosopher
President, Extropy Institute. http://www.extropy.org <more@extropy.org>
_______________________________________________________
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