From: Samantha Atkins (samantha@objectent.com)
Date: Tue Jul 30 2002 - 00:08:13 MDT
Lee Corbin wrote:
>
> First, we all know the facts here insofar as attempting to
> interpret the sentence "people in prison are different from
> you or me". We understand that statistically they are
> different, and also understand that in some cases there
> really isn't an important difference (maybe yes, they broke
> some incredibly obscure law that I also break, but for some
> reason got caught).
>
I don't understand that "statistically they are different" in
any way meaningful to the conversation. You made the statement
that breaking the law, just because it is a law, it always
wrong. That is a pretty open and shut statement that many
people, including Randall and I, took issue with. It is not
part of the "facts here" that the laws are obscure. It is part
of the facts that you also agree with that many laws in the US
should not be laws and that many laws are quite able to be
selectively enforced to throw people into prisons at the whim of
police, courts and so on.
> We are talking about the 55% of the people who are in prison
> for drug related charges, and the 44% of the rest who are
> there for crimes that we agree are crimes.
I do not make any claims to this ratio but let that go for now.
> It's not helpful
> to attempt to change the discussion so that it focuses on
> the remaining 1%. The 55% (at least!) almost all knowingly
> broke the law and used drugs that are forbidden. I'm not
That they knowingly did something that should not be illegal but
is illegal is not in the least any condemnation of them or
blameworthy. Would you agree?
> like them, otherwise I would have given cocaine a try a long
> time ago. You and I certainly are not like the 44% who we
> would judge have been found guilty of serious crime. I also
> think that it was this 44% about whom the original comments
> were directed that started the discussion.
>
I do not agree that as many as 44% actually are guilty of
anything justifying their sentences. And no, it was not this
"44%" that was what the initial discussion was directed at. It
certainly wasn't what some of your very general and questionable
remarks were directed at. So why attempt to shift it now?
>
>>You cannot help but [break laws]. There was a study
>>illustrating this a while back that I can't lay hands on.
>>
>
> Yes, like we've already agreed, there're way too many laws.
> But please note that 99% the people in prison have not been
> charged with those peculiar and mostly unnoticed laws. It's
> not all that hard to get a fine or suspended sentence anyway
> for jaywalking.
>
99%? Ah, taking your own arbitrary numbers as the basis for
mathematics. If 55% of the people are in as the result of bogus
laws then that is 55% of prisoners who should not be there. The
study I allude to, iirc, was from the University of Chicago. It
found that the average citizen breaks some 2000 laws on the
books every single day. This is not a small effect. If said
citizen is the wrong color, of the wrong political party, speaks
out too often and too effectively and so on, then these laws can
easily lead to their arrest and conviction. I should also point
out that due to things like the "3 strikes" law, a person can be
put away for life for a series of infractions that might be
felonies on the books, but which are actually relatively minor
and normally would get relatively minor punishments and/or jail
time. The number of things that are considered felonious have
increased astronomically in the latter half of the twentied
century. In the get tough on crime era, many mandatory sentence
provisions and limits on the judge's discretion due to
extenuating circumstances were put in place. This also results
in more people in prison and doing much more time in prison.
>
>>Then how are people imprisoned on ridiculous charges not
>>like you or me except in the fact that they are in prison
>>and we are not?
>>
>
> Yes, I guess we've agreed that indeed that those in prison
> on ridiculous charges are just like you and me, but I would
> not call drug possession a ridiculous charge. It's a charge
If the law is wrong then it cannot be anything but a ridiculous
reason to put someone in prison.
> made quite seriously and deliberately by governing bodies of
> representatives, and deserves therefore to be taken quite
> seriously. Of course, you and I think the law wrong, but
> as I said in "Obedience to Law", it should be obeyed anyway.
>
I don't care if it was made by governing bodies or not. They
are capable of error and of quite willful error as the entire
sorry "War on Drugs" is elegant testimony to. I am sure you
know this so I do not understand why you would make such an
argument. "Obedience to Law" is not a virtue when the law
itself is evil. You reiterate that it should be obeyed just
because it is the law but you fail to deal with the objections
that many laws of many states, including our own, are simply
utterly wrong.
What would you do for instance with the laws still on the books
in many states forbidding homosexual sex if you were gay? Would
you deny yourself a sex life or move or ignore the laws? When
the law forbids people their own private life and the right to
run their life as they see fit with no harm to others then the
law is forbidding what it was supposed to uphold - the right to
life and the pursuit of happiness. At that point one can choose
to obey the law or to live. It is an evil choice but it is not
the guilt of the people that they choose to live.
- samantha
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