From: Max More (max@maxmore.com)
Date: Tue Jul 09 2002 - 23:35:49 MDT
I don't see any information about possible rebroadcast, but here's the
transcript:
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0207/09/cf.00.html
BEGALA: Well, at baseball's all-star game tonight, there will be a special
tribute to 18-time all-star Ted Williams, who died last week. Just think,
though, if some people have their way at future all-star games, Teddy "Ball
Game" may be back, along with that sweet swing that got him a .406 batting
average in 1941.
Williams' children are involved in a bizarre and angry battle over his
corpse. His son reportedly had the body frozen in hopes that someday
Williams' DNA could be sold and a lineup of little Teds could be cloned.
His daughter is fighting to have her father's remains cremated.
Fire and ice tonight in our CROSSFIRE. Our guests are Dr. Max More,
president of the Extropy Institute and a member of Alcor Life Extension
Foundation. He is in Los Angeles. And, in Charlottesville, Virginia,
Jonathan Moreno, the director of the University of Virginia's Center for
Bioethics.
Thank you for joining us.
(APPLAUSE)
CARLSON: Dr. More, thank you for joining us. I have to admit, I didn't know
a great deal about cryonics when I woke up this morning, but spent a little
time on the worldwide Web, went to something called the Cryonics Institute
and came across the following page.
"In emergency cases," it says, "before proceeding any further, if the
person has already died, cool his or her head immediately. Place ice cubes
or crushed ice or water ice in a plastic bag and completely cover the
front, top, back and sides of the person's head." It goes on to say, "click
here if the person is not yet dead, and we can help you freeze the head."
Now, you're a believer in cryonics. What -- if you're a believer, do you
keep a -- I don't know, a soup tureen of liquid nitrogen in your house?
What exactly are the methods you use to preserve a body as it dies?
DR. MAX MORE, PRESIDENT, EXTROPY INSTITUTE: Well, first of all, I'm not a
believer. I don't like to be a believer in anything. I think the cryonics
gives some unknown chance of success. Nobody is actually promising that
this will work.
We have some reasonable evidence that brain cells can survive for some time
after clinical death. That's not biological death. But we don't know the
actual chances of being brought back. So I'm not believing in anything.
All I believe is that it's probably a better chance if I'm suspended than
if I'm thrown in the ground to rot or be burned in flames. Those don't give
you any chance at all.
(CROSSTALK)
MORE: Go ahead.
CARLSON: As I understand it, it's quite expensive? I mean, in some cases,
over $100,000 to have your body or your head preserved.
MORE: That's the new thing, because I've been doing this since I was in my
early 20s, and I had no money as a student. And I did it with life
insurance, which is how most people do it, which is a very small payment
per month.
CARLSON: Are you a body or a head man?
MORE: I'm head only, at the moment. I'm head only right now. My view is
that any technology that can repair the damage from the crystal formation
could also regenerate the body relatively easily.
BEGALA: So that means that when you're gone, they're going to chop your
head off and freeze it in, like, a big Frigidaire, and the rest of you does
go away, right? They'll burn it or bury it or whatever, right?
MORE: That's true, although I think my own preference would be to preserve
the rest of my body separately, or at least the spinal column, in case
there's any useful information in there for revival purposes.
BEGALA: But they might be more comfortable together. Wouldn't they want to
kind of hang out together? They become attached for a while.
MORE: I'll tell you what. If things improve, if the suspension procedures
get better than they are today so there's really no cellular damage, then
yes, I'll take my whole body, because it will be fairly easy to bring me back.
But right now, there's no denying that tremendous damage is done by the
freezing process itself, despite all the precautions taken. And to repair
that kind of level of damage, we need an advanced molecular technology that
would make regenerating a body relatively easy. And I say relatively easy.
CARLSON: Mr. Moreno, this is obviously grotesque and ghoulish and kind of
revolting. But what is morally wrong with it? You're an ethicist. Explain
why this is a wrong thing.
JONATHAN MORENO, DIRECTOR FOR BIOETHICS, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA: You know,
Tucker, the 50- or $100,000 to freeze the great Ted Williams' head would be
better spent buying baseball equipment for kids in the inner city, or
building them baseball parks.
This is a medical science that doesn't even meet the silliness threshold.
And it's really unfortunate that something like Ted Williams' memory is
caught in this. The justice issue here also is, you know, there's something
to the ancient wisdom that says we get our shot, we all get our shot at
life, and then we move on so the next person can take our place.
What if Tucker Carlson were around for 100 years? How many people sitting
in your audience at GW wouldn't have a shot at your job?
MORE: I'm shocked to hear that.
BEGALA: That's the least of the worries about Tucker being around for
another 100 years.
MORE: I'm shocked by this idea that we should just dispose of people as
soon as they keel over. Would you not give people resuscitation as their
hearts stop temporarily? Or would you not give them chemotherapy to try to
get over cancer?
These people are not disposable. These are human beings who have a chance
of coming back. If you're going to it's silly, I think you need to give a
reason why so we can actually address the real arguments there.
CARLSON: What about that, Mr. Moreno?
MORENO: The problem is that this is all part of a culture that has totally
lost track of the fact that life has an appropriate beginning, middle and end.
MORE: Appropriate according to who?
MORENO: I don't agree with Dr. More's view that this is simply an extension
of other life-preserving techniques. There are times when it's appropriate
to use those techniques. There are times when it's appropriate to use those
techniques and medical care, and times when it's not.
MORE: And who decides when it's appropriate?
MORENO: Excuse me, sir, can I finish?
MORE: Certainly.
MORENO: So many people now are suffering in their last days and weeks of
life, as are their families, because of inappropriate medical interventions.
MORE: But this would remove...
MORENO: Sir, I'm still talking. We've come to expect people to insist upon.
And we are creating a very bizarre technology of death instead of a
technology of life. And this is only the oddball limit of that kind of
culture.
MORE: Again, that's not an argument. And I would make the point that if we
had good cryonic suspension available, then probably most people wouldn't
want to suffer those last months, which are very expensive months, in
hospitals. They'd rather be suspended under better conditions. That would
greatly reduce the cost of medical care.
MORENO: You have no medical or scientific argument, either. You've just
said that someday it might be possible. Someday it might be possible to fly
a cow to the moon without a spaceship.
MORE: No, that's nonsense. That's nonsense. You're talking nonsense. Now
you're being silly because you're making ridiculous arguments that
contravenes physics.
(CROSSTALK) MORE: I'd like to hear why he thinks that this contravenes
physics or biology. Flying a cow to the moon without propulsion system does
violate physics. Let's hear an argument, please.
CARLSON: Well, let me provide an argument for you.
MORE: It's very easy to make fun, isn't it? But give me an argument.
CARLSON: I'll go right ahead and do that. I want to read you something from
the Alcor Life Extension Foundation, of which apparently you're a member.
This is from, again, the Web site.
Here's a quote. "The possibility of living a longer, more productive life,
even following the event we now refer to as death is becoming more
realistic with each passing day."
There is a kind of willful self-deception here. I mean, the fact is, people
do die. We're not very close to eliminating death. There's really no hope
at this point that mankind will ever be able to eliminate death. And this
is sort of elaborate pretending, is it not?
MORE: There's no hope, according to who? There are many eminent scientists
these days who think there's a great deal of hope. We've already
immortalized cells in culture. We've used (UNINTELLIGIBLE) extend the life
of cells. We can regenerate a number of tissues.
We're making advances on an enormous number of fronts. There's no reason to
say that this is an impossible problem to cure. It's a technical problem
and we will cure it in time.
And in the meantime, this is the conservative thing to do, to preserve
somebody in good condition to reach that possible technology. Otherwise
they have no chance at all.
BEGALA: Dr. More, I disagree with you. But you have a perfect right to
waste your money and follow all these goofy enterprises. But in the case of
Ted Williams, there's no indication I've seen in the public record that
this was Mr. Williams' desire. This is, according to the news accounts I've
seen, the desire of his son.
In fact, as Mr. Moreno pointing out, Ted Williams, I know for a fact he
spent a good deal of his life, most of his life, raising money for the
Jimmy Fund, a cancer fund, that helped kids with cancer. And my guess is
he'd probably rather have that money spent helping children alive today
trying to fight cancer, than turning himself into a sideshow spectacle, the
way it's become.
So why should somebody else make the decision, in the case of Ted Williams?
MORE: Well, I don't argue with that. I don't know the exact facts of this
case. And we certainly can't trust the other side to give an accurate
interpretation. But my view is really, it should be up to each person to
decide if they want to be suspended. Nobody else should really decide that
for them. Now, if he's paying for it, that's one thing. But if it's against
his wishes, then no, that's not OK. So I don't disagree with that. But it
should be our choice individually.
CARLSON: OK. On that happy note, we're going to take a quick break. We'll
be right back. Stay frozen to your chairs, heads and all. Our guests will
be right back to consider this question. If Ted Williams can be frozen and
unthawed, does that mean that people such as Richard Simmons, Bill
O'Reilly, yes, Kathy Lee Gifford, can live forever too? We'll explore the
ethical implications of cryonics -- and there are many.
Later, President Bush's prescription for what's ailing Wall Street. Will
business take its medicine?
And our quote of the day. It's from a man who's been prone to exaggeration,
outright falsehoods, in the past. There he goes again. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CARLSON: Welcome back to CROSSFIRE. We're talking about the implications of
freezing and cloning famous people, cutting their heads off for future use.
Today it's baseball legend Ted Williams. What if someday it's Bill Clinton?
Ooh.
In the CROSSFIRE tonight, from Los Angeles, Dr. Max More. He's the
president of the Extropy Institute and a member of the Alcor Life Extension
Foundation. And in Charlottesville, Virginia, there's Jonathan Moreno,
who's the director of UVa's center for bioethics.
BEGALA: Dr. More, let's talk about some of the -- I think, silly, absurd,
but practical ramifications of your position. If such mythical technology
ever takes place and we can revivify an 83-year- old Floridian like Ted
Williams, what are we going to do with this army of 83-year-olds?
Do they get back Social Security? Do they get their inheritance back that
they left to their kids? Do they still qualify for rent control for all the
years that they were in frozen suspension? What are the pragmatics of this?
MORE: Those are all excellent questions. There are many issues. We have to
sort of multi-track on this, and not think along one line. Don't just think
of an 83-year-old person coming back, but really think about all the
changes that are happening.
That person to be brought back, first of all, they're not going to be
revived until we've really cured the problem of aging, which is going to
take some unknown amount of time. So they're not going to come back as an
aged 83-year-old person. They'll come back with youthful vitality.
Now, there is certainly a major issue of adjusting psychologically, and
that's not going to be easy. I don't think anybody should pretend it will
be easy. But, you know, I made a move from England to California, which is
a pretty big culture shock. This will be bigger one, certainly. Many people
won't want to do that.
BEGALA: You're talking about human popsicles. I mean, England to L.A. may
be a bit, but, I mean. So we're going to -- now, Ted Williams, when he
passed, was 83. He had a bunch of physical maladies, but the body itself
was 83.
So we're not only going to bring him back, but -- like, at what point? Can
we pick? Because '41 was his best season. He hit .406 and he was the
greatest hitter to ever live. Can we bring him back just at that stage of
his development?
MORE: Well, if he did, he wouldn't be very good in comparison to the
athletes of that time, I suspect, because the standards keep going up as we
get better ways of training and diet and chemistry and so on. So I don't
think that would be a very good idea. He's not going to be coming back and
playing the same game, at that point.
CARLSON: Mr. Moreno, one of the things that I'm -- one of the many things
I'm bothered by in the story, is the idea that these companies take this
money, then promise to keep these heads under ice for a thousand years,
into perpetuity.
I mean, everyone thought Enron was going to last forever. Of course, it
didn't. Is there any government regulation of this? Or can you just become
a freelance head-taker? Do you know, Mr. Moreno?
MORENO: This is the wild, wild west, Tucker. There's no regulation. People
can spend their money on foolish things if they want to. But there's so
much more good that could be done.
You know, there's a special irony in talking about cloning an all-star team
of Ted Williams. He had such a great swing that people called him the
natural. He hated that, because he had a great work ethic.
And he used to say that he worked every swing that he got. Every ball that
he hit, he worked very hard to hit. And...
CARLSON: Back to the -- wait, I just want to make sure I understand this.
There are laws against desecrating corpses.
MORENO: Of course.
CARLSON: And yet, anybody can just open a mom or pop head shop, basically,
and the government can't do anything about it. Is that right?
MORENO: That's right. I mean, this is one of the areas in which there is
not regulation. There's also hardly any regulation at all on the other end
of life, on in vitro fertilization, for example, which is why this whole
business about human cloning has gotten to be such a hot topic.
MORE: Well, there may be reasons for regulation and oversight. But of
course, that would probably add legitimacy to this, which you probably
wouldn't want to do. But let me ask you, if we had a procedure, some
experimental procedure, that might help somebody to stay alive, but it was
quite difficult to do and was expensive, would you tell them, sorry, but
you're going to have to die because that's expensive. The money could have
gone to the Boy Scouts or some other charity. Are you going to say that
that person cannot use their money to die, that it's a silly attempt?
(CROSSTALK)
MORENO: Dr. More, I've said before, people can do silly things with their
money. If they want to give it to companies like yours, that's fine with
me. But I think people...
(CROSSTALK)
MORE: There's nothing silly about that.
MORENO: People ought to think a little more deeply than you apparently
have, about...
MORE: I've thought about it very deeply, I can assure you.
MORENO: That's not what I'm hearing tonight.
MORE: Well, I haven't heard any arguments from you whatsoever. All you've
given are some ridiculous kind of analogies with cows flying to the moon.
Honestly, they're very poor kind of arguments.
MORENO: Exactly what I read about...
(CROSSTALK)
MORE: Excuse me, but I'm talking right now. We've frozen many kinds of
tissues. We've frozen skin, we've frozen 40 different kinds of tissue.
We've revived those back. We're getting on towards doing whole organs.
There's no reason to think that the information embodied in those cells is
destroyed completely, if you suspend someone in good condition.
So for you to say that's impossible, you're going to eat those words in the
future. I'd actually like to make a bet with you, if you're willing to do
that, off the show, for some large sum of money, whether this will be
possible or not. Because I don't think you have good reasoning behind your
position.
MORENO: Sir, I believe that life has a course and a shape. And I don't want
to be around to collect on that bet.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
BEGALA: The ethics, Mr. Moreno, of -- the news reports we've seen is that
Ted Williams' son wants to freeze his father's corpse to sell the DNA to
others. Now, if DNA, off, transferred hitting ability, then his son would
have hit .406. And his son is a total loser. What are the ethics of selling
off the DNA?
MORENO: The ethics of selling off the DNA is, that's pretty much
unregulated, too. But it's ridiculous. I mean, there's as likely to get me,
which they definitely don't want on their team, as they are to get another
star quality hitter as Ted Williams. Genetics is a lot more complicated
than that.
MORE: I agree.
MORENO: You don't express a quality that simply, that directly.
MORE: I agree, too. I think it's a ridiculous idea, if that's what's
happening. But I don't know if that is what's happening, or just what one
side of the family is saying. Certainly you cannot bring back that person
with a DNA. A DNA is not a person. There's going to be a huge number of
changes in the environment and the expression of those genes. So that would
be a ridiculous idea.
BEGALA: Dr. More, thank you very much. We'll have you back in 250 years.
And, Mr. Moreno, thank you. We'll have you back during your natural life.
(APPLAUSE)
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