From: Mike Lorrey (mlorrey@datamann.com)
Date: Sat Jun 29 2002 - 17:40:37 MDT
Lee Corbin wrote:
>
> Anders writes
>
> > Who creates jobs? If jobs are a scarce resource that is produced by some
> > external agent then it might make sense to ration them (in Sweden the
> > government is generally believed to be the agent that somehow creates
> > jobs, not just jobs in the big government sector of the economy but also
> > in the private sector). If jobs instead are something people create for
> > themselves by starting businesses or making businesses interested in
> > hiring them, then the above strategy makes no sense.
>
> Yes, exactly. Governments don't create jobs, people create jobs.
Yes, people create jobs, but people also create government, and people
don't necessarily create their own jobs (I wasn't aware that that was
what Help Wanted ads actually did, it seems more a demand/supply
confusion).... What is your point?
>
> > I would say the evidence is overwhelming for the last position. And
> > hence the idea of keeping others out so the locals can get the scarce
> > jobs will in fact keep everybody worse off (that is, everybody except
> > certain vested interests benefiting, in Sweden the labour unions and
> > their intimate friends the social democratic party).
>
> No, it will only leave worse off the people in *Sweden*! Siphoning
> off other countries' most productive, energetic, and productive
> citizens does indeed help Sweden, but think of the lost opportunities
> of the donor nations.
We siphon plenty of highly productive Swedes from the nanny state, and
generally none of them is here to get on the welfare teat, since it's so
much better at home. I wonder how many Americans try to immigrate to
Sweden versus the reverse?
>
> > One of the reasons Sweden needs more people is that it is a rapidly
> > graying generation. Within a few years a sizeable fraction of the
> > workforce will retire, and by 2020 25% of the population will be above
> > 65 years. Unless we want the living standard to decrease, we need more
> > people to keep the economy floating.
>
> Yes, instead of taking the trouble of having and raising children
> themselves, many Swedes wish to exploit the children, young adults,
> workers, and productive citizens belonging to other countries.
Its a rather sad externalization of costs. Other countries paid good
money (and many times bad money, but plenty of it...;)) to make those
people who they are and Sweden goes and forgets to have its own
children, so they import foreigners, who have no understanding of
Swedish culture, history, or traditions, to do the grunt work for
them...
>
> All recent third world immigrants should be returned to their countries
> of origin at once. Naturally, this is not a negative reflection on the
> immigrants themselves---who can blame them for wanting to benefit their
> lives?---but it needs to be pointed out to them the harm their desertion
> does to their mother countries. They should be encouraged to see the
> nobility of returning to help their native lands develop properly.
Part of the reason for said immigration is that they were not properly
appreciated at home, either for political or cultural reasons.
>
> > But immigration is politically out, while Göran Person instead
> > suggests giving economic incentives to people to get more children
> > and marry more!
>
> Ah, it is good that at least a few high-minded people live in Europe
> too. Sometimes I think that all they ever have at heart is what's
> good for their own nations.
Frankly I don't care if they have kids, or adopt third world kids, so
long as the next generation are raised in the culture. When the next
generation has no familial, historical, or cultural connection with the
previous one, the country ceases to be the same country. You might as
well just stop calling Sweden 'Sweden'.
>
> > One reason the US is such an economic powerhouse is the open
> > immigration policy (yes, it is open when you compare to Europe)
> > that produces a relatively young population. Add to this an
> > entrepreneur-friendly climate, and you are set.
>
> Yes, just so. As good as immigration is for the advanced, receiving
> Western nation, we should instead consider the harm being done to the
> nations of origin, and not only in terms of active and entrepreneurial
> people, but in terms of morale too.
>
> No, let us take the high road---for once---and round up all the
> immigrants, even unto the second or third generation, and return
> them to their own countries. Think of the benefit to the developing
> countries as they integrate into their own stagnant economies
> millions of U.S. and Europe free market-trained young people.
> It will be our loss, of course, but their immeasurable gain.
Well, if you insist, I get to be deported to Sweden, Italy, and Scotland
(how WILL they divvy me up??? I wonder.) Think they'll be waiting on the
dock with open arms?
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