From: John Grigg (starman2100@lycos.com)
Date: Tue Jun 04 2002 - 22:45:06 MDT
Hello Damien,
Will "(pace, John Grigg)/Mormonism" be a regularly featured subject for you on the extrolist?? Are you publicly trying to give me a hard time for my religious affiliation? lol I thought extropians(and non-extrope transhumanists like you) already were convinced religion was not a rational thing?
I realize you were using Mormonism as an example to make your point to Max about Rand, but it seemed to an extent like an excuse for sarcastic mormon bashing. Is the mormon presence in your part of Australia beginning to bother you? Are we growing too fast, with buildings and missionaries everywhere underfoot?
What exactly are your longterm motives here? Are you trying to save or enlighten me? James Swayze(a very good friend of mine) is already hard at work on that!
Should I become a younger version of you, and the path you took? Is that it?? Do you think this would be a good thing for me?
I admit there are things about my religion I don't have ready answers for. I just think in a big picture way that the various supernatural experiences of those whom I have read about past and present(and people I actually know personally very well) are to be taken seriously, and not simply discounted as the brain playing tricks.
There is a world out there of faith, spirit and personal witness which I realize transhumanists reject because it is not empirical in the classic sense. Experimenting upon the words of Christ by living them to gain a verification of ultimate truth is something best done within the inner life of a person.
best wishes,
John
On Tue, 04 Jun 2002 14:26:35
Damien Broderick wrote:
>At 09:42 AM 6/3/02 -0700, Max More wrote:
>
>>it is not these shortcomings for which [Rand's] work is recommended --
>>it's for the positive and healthy ideas I listed in an earlier post.
>
>In that post, Max said:
>
>>which *part* of Ayn Rand's basic philosophy (not personality,
>>philosophy) do you despise? Is it her rationalism? Her anti-religious
>>views? Her realism? Her optimism ("benevolent universe")? Her defense of
>>freedom?
>
>Let me answer that equally rhetorically. Which part of, say, THE BOOK OF
>MORMON and Mormon practise (pace, John Grigg) do you despise, Max? Is it
>the emphasis on family and loyalty? The imaginative scope of its invented
>history? Its transcendent optimism (every saint a god in a new universe)?
>Its unabashed capitalist zeal? The audacious undergarments?
>
>>So, if you reaction to her monochrome, romantic, uncompromising side is
>>your reason for not being an extropian, that just doesn't compute. The
>>reading list *does* explicitly say that a book's listing there does *not*
>>mean that all of the work accords with extropian thinking.
>
>The discussion seems to have split here into two parts.
>
>I cited Olga's comments on Rand's inclusion in the read-this pantheon as a
>*gesture* or *metaphor* trying to convey my distance from extropianism by
>contrast with generic transhumanism. I mentioned an interest in
>experimental parapsychology; if I found that a certain gathering of
>parapsychological specialists provided me with lots of useful information
>on that field, even though some of its sponsors swore by the magical feats
>of Uri Geller and fondly recalled their own UFO-abduction convictions, I
>would participate without signing up for the package.
>
>Commenting on the defects of Rand's fiction per se is a somewhat separate
>issue. However, if your list included THE BOOK OF MORMON for all those
>bracing qualities it contains among its absurdities, fabrications and the
>thought-policing character of its disciples, I'd be equally taken aback.
>
>>>To the extent that Rand's ideas have validity [...]
>>>I'd prefer to see them deployed--on a list of
>>>recommended books--in the form of philosophy or sociology or whatever--not
>>>as agitprop comic strips.
>
>>Do you mean replacing Rand's own writing
>>with philosophers and sociologists who have been influenced by her
>>work? If that's what you mean, I think that might be workable for the
>>reading list.
>
>I can't make recommendations of this sort, of course, since I'm not an
>extropian and in any case I find much of Rand's comprehensive world view
>simplistic, often untrue to reality, often antagonistic to values I regard
>as crucial to mature human development and enriched human community. But
>really, I'm not here now to gore anyone's oxen, and I'm not really
>interested in discussing the details of Rand's strange picture of the world.
>
>Damien Broderick
>
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