From: Harvey Newstrom (mail@HarveyNewstrom.com)
Date: Thu May 23 2002 - 10:27:33 MDT
Nice try, Lee. But this distortion of Anti-Extropian ideas under the
banner of Extropianism is the exact thing I am against. Whether you are
trying to be sarcastic to make real Extropian ideas look bad, or whether
you are trying to be serious and co-opt Extropians to a different
agenda, the result is the same. We must be careful to keep Extropians
focused on Extropy. Entropic ideas need to go find their own forum.
On Thursday, May 23, 2002, at 11:20 am, Lee Corbin wrote:
> We should make every effort to avoid the discussion of extremely
> unpleasant subjects
NOT! Let's avoid unpleasant anti-Extropian topics, but keep Extropian
topics.
> especially if it in any way involves unsettling people's feelings.
Extropianism itself is unsettling to some. We don't want to avoid
Extropian topics. Only Entropian, pro-death, pro-prejudice,
pro-violence, anti-Extropian topics.
> Some
> might retort that extreme examples sometimes serve to
> illustrate or clarify general principles, but in fact
> they mostly merely serve only to agitate people and disturb
> our sense of tranquility.
Wrong. Extreme examples to point out logical flaws can be a useful
tool. Extreme examples that try to twist Extropy into some violent
racist revolution that was never intended is not useful.
> As for the Extropian principles, indeed they were not written
> to be criticized or held up to examination. They were, and
> are, an expression of our collective feelings on many levels.
> They are meant to be followed, not challenged.
Exactly 180-degrees backwards. The Extropian Principles were written to
be criticized. They should be held up for examination. They are about
logic, science and rational thought. They do not promote our collective
feelings on any levels. They were meant to be challenged, not merely
followed. However, when someone finds themselves generally at odds with
the Extropian Principles, it is time for them to realize that they are
not an Extropian. Trying to redefine Extropianism into some new
political agenda that bears no resemblance to its original intent is
just a form of double-speak. By all means, lets keep fine-tuning the
Extropian Principles. But let's not rewrite them into Entropy
Principles masquerading as Extropian.
> Difficult
> questions about what might happen in a Singularity when
> computronium gets out of control and unpleasant things
> might happen to real people should be avoided at all costs.
Nobody wants to avoid difficult questions like these. It is difficult
"solutions" that we want to avoid, such as killing infants, legalizing
child abuse, establishing one race over others, establishing one gender
as superior, governing people against their will, taking people's
property without permission, giving ourselves more power than we allow
others, using the ends to justify the means, promoting violence,
promoting death, promoting historical human modes of bloody revolution,
etc. It is these "solutions" that we want to avoid. Those are the old
human ways that don't work. Extropians seek new solutions that are
pro-Extropy rather than pro-Entropy.
> And you're so right about even thinking about human value,
> or gender, or race: such thoughts could cause us to question
> the most fundamental tenets of our society, perhaps even what
> it means to be human.
Nobody said that we should stop thinking about human value or gender or
race. It is the devaluation of human life, the devaluation of one
gender or the elevation of one race over others that we find
objectionable. Transhumanists unceasingly question the fundamental
tenets of our society and what it means to be human. Howerver
Extropians seek to improve such tenets in the future. Other people seem
to want to turn back the clock.
> "Anti-extropian suggestions" should indeed be identified,
> denounced, and rooted out on this list. Well put!
"Anti-extropian" suggestions should be given their own label and their
own mailing list to discuss on. This list is intended for Pro-Extropian
suggestions. Why should we fill our list with the exact opposite of
what we stand for?
-- Harvey Newstrom, CISSP <www.HarveyNewstrom.com> Principal Security Consultant <www.Newstaff.com>
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