From: Randy Smith (randysmith101@hotmail.com)
Date: Wed Dec 12 2001 - 18:23:43 MST
>From: Anders Sandberg <asa@nada.kth.se>
>Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org
>To: extropians@extropy.org
>Subject: Re: http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991679
>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2001 01:10:03 +0100
>
>On Wed, Dec 12, 2001 at 05:21:38PM -0600, Randy Smith wrote:
> >
> >
> > http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991679
> >
> > Cloned monkey embryos are a "gallery of horrors"
>
>Interesting. I really wonder what part of the primate cell
>machinery is notably different from other mammals? Anybody
>knows?
>
> > Ya see, that is a fundamental difference between me and mainstream
> > extropianism: I say it's OK to go all Frankenstein with respect to
> > genetic engineering--because GE deals with making biological bodies,
> > and in order to be immortal, bodies are important...VERY important.
>
>Maybe you have no plans of getting extropianism respected?
>Calling something Frankenstein is not a statement about it
>merely being yuckky biology, but a statement that it is
>unnecessary or unethical yuckky biology. Are you in favor of
>unnecessary research (which takes resources that could be used
>for real research) or unethical research (which is likely to
>produce a well armed opposition pursuing you)?
>
My American idioms may not go over all that well with you, it being a 2nd
langauage for you. Actually, Dr F is a hero of mine. My philosophy is that
we are all dying anyway, so let it rip, etc...
>There is a lot of yuckky ethical and nece
ssary research (like
>studies of cortical development, which requires some rather
>disturbing experiments on kittens), but that is a different
>story. The ACT research belongs in this category IMHO, and is
>nothing to be squeamish about.
>
Self-interest must prevail when it comes to animal experimentation--we have
no social contract with them....
> > OTOH, Extropianism says it's OK to go all Frankenstein with respect
> > to immigration. Why is that, I ask? Oh, I see, because in order to
> > be immortal, we need cheaper busboys, dishwashers and house
> > construction crews, etc. Uh huh...
>
>It is because you americans want bright people like ME <loud
>European Mad Scientist laughter> to immigrate and lecture at
>your universities, enrich your culture or start transhumanist
>companies in a positive business climate.
Do *scientific work is great...
And yes, maybe work as
>dishwashers too.
That's not OK, and neither is working as a programmer.
>The point is, immigration is good for the US
>and the immigrants.
Who cares if it is good for the immigrants; this outfit aint no charity.
Who cares if it is good the the USA, at least insofar as "standard economic
parameters" are concerned. In their day, the slave plantations did a great
business---for the *owners*, that is...
>Just wait and see how the anti-immigrant
>countries of Europe will fare over the next decades with falling
>birth rates and more and more retired people.
Who cares if birthrates fall? MOre natural resources left for those
remaining. Of course, scientific research WOULD lag, and for immortalists
like myself, taht would be bad. But for non-immortalists, who cares if
populations drop. That's good...
>
> > Face it, Extropianism is a memeset created by and for the GreedHeads
> > in Commerce and the Empire Builders in Govt....actually, it is FOR
> > those who are farmed/ranched by the GreedHeads....
Actually, I mispoke--Extropianism was definitely NOT created by
GreedHeads/EmpireBuilders, but by wannabe immortalists such as myself. But
parts of Extropainsim have been augmented and adopted by
GreedHeads/EmpireBuilders, b/c it helps them out...
>
>Interesting. The above is almost word by word a criticism I
>heard of transhumanism over here too? One reason could be that
>it is true of course, but there is another intriguing
>possibility (not necessarily mutually exclusive): that you are
>suffering from a certain memeset (what postmodernists call a
>narrative) that says extropianism must be due to some system
>conspiracy to keep people down.
Paranoia, huh? My philosophy was formed in part by many years of addiction
to "nature programs" on TV and natural history and anthropolgy books and
magazine articles. Nature red of tooth and claw, etc. It applies in the
domain of human affairs, as well. Is the gazelle paranoid when it bolts when
a bounding rabbit rustles leaves?
>In fact, if you start to trace
>the associations of the above statement back (for example by
>looking at what texts and groups commonly use the same ideas and
>terms and who they in turn got them from) you will soon find
>that there is indeed a rather coherent narrative that you are
>buying into here. Basically it says that free trade is always a
>tool of oppression, and cannot be really good (in the long run,
>at least) for any individual except for the minority at the top.
>So people promoting free trade and similar ideas such as free
>immigration either has to be dupes, belonging to the minority
>profiting from it or willingly bought by it. Interesting enough,
>people beliving in this memeset almost never ask themselves
>whether *they* believe what they do because it profits them in
>some way, or because they have assimilated these ideas from the
>surrounding culture.
>\
There is no black and white....only shades of grey?
My ideas are original; I am fairly sure of that. I fact, I used to be an
ardent free trader, but as you grow older and read more, you learn....
>I would say the empirical evidence is fairly good that free
>trade and free movement of people makes nations more wealthy and
>peaceful, making it a rational strategy to strive for such
>things. Others might disagree, but then we can discuss this
>using rational discourse rather than assuming the other has been
>"bought" by special interests. Even if Max More was personally
>hired by the Illuminati to spread extropianism, it might still
>be a good idea - either it holds together under scrutiny, or it
>doesn't.
>
IN some respects, yes, More et al have been bought. They chase business
speaking engagements, yes?
Extropianism as a philsophical foundation (read "pretext") for Greedheads?
Extropianists who seek these speaking engagements had best say what the
GreedHeads want to hear...
(Re: Greedheads: anyone who wants money, but doesn't admit to wanting to
live forever--self serving, I know....)
>
>
>--
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>Anders Sandberg Towards Ascension!
>asa@nada.kth.se http://www.nada.kth.se/~asa/
>GCS/M/S/O d++ -p+ c++++ !l u+ e++ m++ s+/+ n--- h+/* f+ g+ w++ t+ r+ !y
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