From: Robert Coyote (coyyote@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jul 12 2001 - 15:44:52 MDT
I apologize if it is taboo too post a gun thread, I don't know the rules if
there are any.
-bod-
-----------------------------------
Thanks Mikael:
That was very honest, and I agree that it is largely a frame of reference
thing,
I have close friends, who I consider very bright and honest, that feel much
the same as you.
I think it is a grave responsibility to own a gun, and if anyone has doubts
about themselves having one, I agree they should refrain, I think that
people can and typically do overestimate their capacity of responsibility,
and treat raw power frivolously.
Unfortunately I do not live in a peaceful society, its is dangerous and
becoming more so, I anticipate social order will eventually and inevitably
decay, and the police forces absolutely cannot be counted on in any measure
to protect me or my family, so the burden rests squarely on me to shoulder,
and I can't let my family down.
Owning a gun, and carrying it lawfully with me in public (concealed) makes
me even more cautious believe it or not, its makes me hyper-alert, the
negative legal ramifications of "making a mistake", might be less preferable
than dying.
I think that gun grabbing is not a necessarily a socialist issue, the
socialist position could well embrace self armament, and the so called
"rightwing" could just as easily be gungrabbers, I think its a ruse.
I put allot of emphasis on personal empowerment and responsibility, for me,
rights and responsibilities are mutually dependant.
I have read the founders of the USA emphasized that this system of
government they created was only sustainable if the People held to a strict
moral or ethical code, I think we are witnessing the proof of their
assertions.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mikael Johansson" <mikael.johansson@wineasy.se>
To: ""Robert Coyote"" <coyyote@hotmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 1:30 PM
Subject: Re: Correction, bad quoting (guns) (Off-list)
> I take this in private -- since I've heard enough of what guns on extropy
> does not to go there. The reason I've stayed silent since my entering the
> debate is that I realized that I was in over my head...
>
>
> > Does Mikael belive that if he were armed, (actualy more armed because
> > everyone is already armed) he would commit more violence and
criminality?
> >
> > If not, why would he presume that others would?
>
> Yes, I know that I'm not at all times as mentally stable as I am right
now.
> I know that my judgement is not at all times as high as I wish it to be.
And
> I know, that given a firearm, a very strainful situation and a percieved
> threat I might very well commit more violence and criminality than I would
> without the gun.
>
> I believe that carrying the gun might very well lead me to feel so
> overconfident that I might put myself in situations where I cannot pull
out,
> and my poor judgement leads me to so severe a fight that I might in the
very
> worst case actually use the gun.
>
> I also believe that not carrying a gun gives me enough of caution not to
go
> there in the first place, and if I happen to get stuck there, actually try
> to seek help.
>
> And finally. I am a swede. I have had a sheltered childhood and I
sincerely
> believe that the police exists for a proper cause and are able to help me
> out given the need.
> I may be a naïve idiot. I may be wrong. But so far, I live in a calm
> society, where this approach works wonderfully, and given my frame of
> reference, I really don't see the need to arm myself.
>
> I believe that my reasoning about overconfidence and tendency to happen to
> dip in mental stability is general enough for me to assess other people
with
> as well -- which is the reason why I'm not in favour of the second
amendment
> as such, and why I'm more inclined to yell about 'gun-toting madmen' than
> 'gun-grabbing socialists'.
>
> If you feel that this answer is 'safe' enough to spread on, be my guest. I
> personally try to avoid starting a flame war on extropians (although I
seem
> to be bloody close to it already :-) and _will_ not take a fullfledged gun
> debate, since I know that it will do more harm than good, since I know
that
> you all have good arguments, and since I know that the main reason why I'm
> not a card-carrying NRA member myself is that I have a totally alien frame
> of reference.
>
> Do feel free to forward this post.
>
> // Mikael Johansson
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mitchell, Jerry (3337)" <Jerry.Mitchell@esavio.com>
> > To: <extropians@extropy.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2001 10:39 AM
> > Subject: Correction, bad quoting
> >
> >
> > > My apologies to Mike Lorry, I misread a post an accidentally quoted
him
> > with
> > > saying
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > I'm very much against arming civilians. I sincerely believe that it
will
> > > lead to more violence and criminality, not less. And I do not see how
> this
> > > automatically makes my otherwise rather liberal (European measurement,
> not
> > > US) opinions socialist.
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > This was not from him but from Mikael Johansson.
> > > Once again sorry and Ill try to proof the names on this a little
better.
> > >
> > > Jerry Mitchell
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
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