From: John Clark (jonkc@worldnet.att.net)
Date: Sat Dec 09 2000 - 10:34:17 MST
Jason Joel Thompson <jasonjthompson@home.com> Wrote:
> You're dodging the issue. I'm not disputing that it is a digital
> equivalent. I'm asking whether they are the SAME thing, or are, instead,
> two instances.
I'm not dodging the issue, I said as clearly as I know how to that if it's digital it's
the same thing.
>is your definition relevant only to humans?
What do you think, an ameba hasn't had a first thought so it can't worry much
about having a last.
> Your contention is that there is a one or two second period in which both
>entities would, in fact, be basically one? Why?
Because their brains would be operating in the same manner. If 2 phonographs
are playing the same song then 2 songs are not playing. If a copy is made of
me then there are two indistinguishable things, but if "I" is a adjective and not
a noun then there can still be one "I".
> You appear to making the claim that my copies are not discrete-- that there
> is some sort of shared experience across the entities. I'm asking for the
> scientific basis by which you hold this belief.
I perform experiments. I make a copy of Jason Joel Thompson and put him in a
environment identical to the original Jason Joel Thompson and see it their behavior is
similar. I ask the copy who he is and see if he says Jason Joel Thompson. If the
copy says " Oh my god I'm a zombie! I can still do pretty well on IQ tests, I can still
earn a good living, I have friends, I laugh and cry just like anybody else, but really
I'm no more conscious than a rock. " then you're right and I'm wrong.
> Space is a BIG issue with regards to consciousness
Trying to develop a theory of consciousness based on position is a bad idea.
Where does consciousness exist? If it's inside my head why don't I understand
what it's like to float in a liquid encased in a dome made of bone? I assure you
I don't know what that's like, and I sure don't feel that's where "I" am. Feeling and
thinking is what consciousness is all about so that pretty much ends the matter
as far as I'm concerned. Where does "old" exist? Where does "fast" exist?
Where does the number "11" exist? Where does consciousness exist?
These questions have no answer because they make no sense
>My brain is separate from yours-- we have differing experiences of reality.
If our brains were identical then we would have an identical experience of reality.
> Your logic is fraying. Let's try a little diagram. [...]
Perhaps it's my fault but I found you're questions elliptical and unclear, and there
were 12 of them! The diagrams didn't help. Rather than answer such questions
let me try to clarify my position with a thought experiment I sent to the list a few
years ago.
An exact duplicate of the earth, and it's entire ecosystem, is created
a billion light years away. The duplicate world would need some sort of
feedback mechanism to keep the worlds in synchronization, non linear effects
would amplify tiny variations, even quantum fluctuations, into big differences,
but this is a thought experiment so who cares. In the first two cases below the
results would vary according to personalities, remember there's a lot of illogic
even in the best of us.
1) I know all about the duplicate world and you put a 44 magnum to my head
and tell me in ten seconds you will blow my brains out, am I concerned?
You bet I am because I know that your double is holding an identical gun
to the head of my double and making an identical threat.
2) I find out that for the first time since the Big Bang the worlds will
diverge, in 10 seconds you will put a bullet in my head but my double will
be spared, am I concerned? Yes, and angry as well, in times of intense
stress nobody is very logical. My double is no longer exact because I am
going through a traumatic experience and my double is not. I'd be looking
at that huge gun and wondering what it will be like when it goes off and
if death will really be instantaneous. I'd be wondering if my philosophy
was really as sound as I thought it was and I'd also be wondering why I
get the bullet and not my double and cursing the unfairness of it all.
My (semi) double would be thinking "it's a shame about that other fellow
but I'm glad it's not me".
3) I know nothing about the duplicate world, a gun is at both our heads and
we both are convinced we are going to die. One gun goes off, making a hell
of a mess, but the other gun, for inexplicable reasons misfires. In this
case NOBODY died and except for undergoing a terrifying experience I am
completely unharmed. The real beauty part is that I don't even have to
clean up the mess.
The bottom line is we don't have thoughts and emotions, we are thoughts and
emotions, and the idea that the particular hardware that is rendering them
changes their meaning is as crazy as my computer making the meaning of your
post different from what it was on yours.
>why -should- time be a factor? If the copy REALLY is you, and you
>get hit by the bus 60 seconds later, then all you've lost is 60 seconds.
>You had a 60 second old back-up made. Yes, there IS a minute of subjective
>experience lost to the mists of antiquity, but, hey, Two isn't going to know
And two won't care, but one probably will, I can't give you a logical reason why
because I can't give you a logical reason why life is better than death, it's just
a matter of taste.
>You seem to think that if we kill One -instantaneously- when we make Two,
> its okay, but if One dies -later- that's a bad thing.
Right.
>By that logic, we should ALWAYS KILL ONE (at the moment of copying)
Right.
>I am not -just- information.
True, atoms are essential, but information is what makes you different from me
because atoms are generic.
> Are two separate hydrogen molecules the same hydrogen molecule?
Actually Richard Feynman developed a theory that there was only one
electron in the universe, but for the purposes of this discussion I'm willing
to concede that there are 2 hydrogen atoms, but they are indistinguishable.
You may think that you can find a difference in them, because one is here
and the other one is way over there, but can't really because there is no
way of knowing if the particles are changing positions. Try the experiment.
Switch the position of the two hydrogen atoms and you find that the state of the
system remains identical, the two could be instantaneously changing position
and there would be no way two tell and no reason to care.
Time for another thought experiment, me and my exact copy and standing an
equal distance from the center of a perfectly symmetrical room. A mad scientist
presses the button on a magic machine that he claims will instantaneously exchange
my brain with that of my exact copy. He presses the button but I notice absolutely no
difference, he says "that's because the senses of the ordinal and the copy were sending
the same signals to whatever brain happened to be in it's head". You are also present
armed with CAT scans and MRI's and EEG's and high speed cameras and lots of other
good stuff, but you can find no change when he presses the button either.
Our loony friend says "that's because the two brains were identical, but really there was a
huge change, I mean, after all, I exchanged the brains". I maintain that absolutely nothing
is happening, not objectively and not subjectively, and if there is any difference between
this madman and a charlatan the difference is too small to be measured.
John K Clark jonkc@att.net
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