Re: GUNS: Why here?
From: Joe Dees (joedees@addall.com)
Date: Tue Oct 10 2000 - 16:08:45 MDT
('binary' encoding is not supported, stored as-is)
>Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 21:27:14 -0500
>To: extropians@extropy.org
>From: Chuck Kuecker <ckuecker@mcs.net>
>Subject: Re: GUNS: Why here?
>Reply-To: extropians@extropy.org
>
>At 06:09 PM 10/9/00 -0700, you wrote:
>> >All Illinois waiting periods are also strictly enforced. It's a quick ride
>> >to jail if you try to bypass them and get caught.
>> >
>>And does the same hold for, say, Florida and other states? Answer: it
>>does NOT hold for Florida - I live here, have been to the shows, and
>>know. The same for the number of 'private citizen' gun dealers with
>>firearm-strewn tables. BTW, the Turner Diaries are a popular seller at
>>such shows; I purchased a copy at one, from a 'private citizen' gun
>>dealer, just to see what the fuss was about. It was indeed revolting.
>
>Never heard of the "Turner Diaries" Tales of Ted and Jane - or something
>more like "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion" (is that right?)? More
>info, please.
>
The Turner Diaries is a neonazi fantasy about a racist revolution in the US, written by William Pierce, head of the National Alliance, under the pseudonym of Andrew MacDonlad. It was the template for Bob Mathews' organization The Order, which counterfeited money, knocked over armored cars, donating the proceeds to among others, the Aryan Nations, and assassinated Denver Jewish talk show host Alan Berg, as well as for Timothy McVeigh's Oklahoma City Bombing.
>
>I would not term the tables of guns "strewn" as revolting, unless the guns
>were damaged in the "strewing". Persons who don't respect good machinery
>should not have it.
>
The term 'revolting' was in reference to the Turner Diaries.
>
>If Florida does not have waiting periods, then if you care about this, try
>to get it changed at the state level. This is not something the feds should
>be involved in. By present federal law, the background checks are required
>of all dealer sales, still.
>
Why not consolidate the laws to eliminate the interstate disparities which fuel interstate gun trafficking, rather than have "20,001 laws!" shouted by the NRA?
>
>>Yeah, let's arm ALL the teachers, and if a metal detector shows that they
>>DON'T have weapons, they should be issued at the schoolhouse door -
>>NOT. Let's keep the guns out of the hands of the kids, instead, through
>>gun show background checks.
>
>Ever hear of the "war on drugs"? If kids can get heroin, they can get guns.
>Shut down the gun shows, and you just take away the rights of the many who
>don't shoot up schools to ATTEMPT to stop the minuscule number of creeps
>who do.
>
Wrong. #1, I'm not interested in the gun shows being shut down, just for all weapons purchased there to require background checks of the buyer; this could be done by computer or toll-free telephone. #2, there ARE such things as gun shops, gun manufacturers, pawn shops (all of which should have their salse subject to background checks of their buyers, also); gun shows are not the only place for sane law-abiding adulte to buy guns. #3, guns are more expensive, heavier and bulkier (harder to conceal) than pills, powders or joints, they cannot be used without people noticing (even with silencers, there's the whole death thing), and they do not grow on bushes, shrubs or trees, nor are they easy to make (and a zip gun is no match for even a cheap .22).
>
>Again and again - exactly how are any kinds of gun laws aside from a
>complete confiscation of all weapons, done by an inch - by - inch search of
>the entire continent, followed by a hermetic sealing of the borders, going
>to prevent a determined nutcase from getting a weapon on the black market
>that exists now and will grow uncontrollably as soon as the confiscation is
>announced? Guns are simple machines. They can be made in a garage in a few
>hours, along with ammo, if that is what you need to do. You will succeed in
>making guns hard to get for good, stable people, and make lots of money for
>smugglers.
>
Nope. The closing of the loopholes does not hinder or interfere with in the least the right and ability for sane and law-abiding adults to purchase, keep and bear. We can't make it impossible for every kid, psycho and violent criminal to obtain a firearm, but we can (and should) make it harder, which means that less of them (a smaller percentage) will succeed in doing so.
>
>It's not necessary for every school staff member to be armed and ready for
>a fire fight, let alone openly carrying. I would not expect anyone to carry
>a firearm unless they were proficient in its' use and mentally and
>emotionally prepared to use it when necessary. The simple knowledge that
>some staff MIGHT be armed is sufficient to prevent many crimes. The
>suicidal person who would still attempt an atrocity will always be with us
>- but at least there would be a chance that someone with a weapon and the
>skill to use it in a crunch would be on hand when the disturbed person appears.
>
The armed guard at Littleton was no help, but I would prefer that only guards be armed. Otherwise, since people do flip out occasionally, there would be a greater chance that the occasionally postalgoing teacher would find him/herself with a gun and a lot of little targets.
>
>The actual figures on "mass" killings are very low, but highly publicized.
>There are a few unpublicized instances of an armed individual stopping or
>preventing a Columbine style massacre. They are unpublicized because they
>do not fit with the media's demonization of firearms. When I find my
>references, I will send them to you direct.
>
There is one I've heard of; I think it was the Pearl, Mississippi shooting, where an assistant principal had a gun. Here in Pensacola, we had a teacher's car broken into in the school parking lot and her gun stolen. Walking around 180 days a year arould a thousand little hands with your piece on your hip is not a good idea for most teachers either.
>
>>Most likely it is an NRA disinformation urban legend, or it was the kids
>>themselves hyping their impending spree - that is, unless you believed
>>that government operatives showed them 52 Red Queens.
>
>The warning call supposedly came in on a line that was reserved for
>official use - not one that could be easily dialed in on by anyone.
>I don't recognize the reference to "Queens".
>
part of the legend someone heard tell of and told to someone else, memetically warping seven ways from sunday on the way. The reference to 52 Queens is from the movie "The Manchurian Candidate", where the sight of a red queen was the trigger to activate brainwashed assassins.
>
>Chuck Kuecker
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: Fri Nov 01 2002 - 15:31:32 MST