From: Michael S. Lorrey (retroman@turbont.net)
Date: Wed Sep 06 2000 - 09:35:34 MDT
Paul Hughes wrote:
>
> Personal History with Extropy(TM) and transhumanism in general.
<snip self back patting>
>
> And to think I was actually beginning to worry when I didn't see predictable
> knee-jerk reactions on this issue. Remember my worry when no one responded to my
> initial post after the first two days? I thought to myself, "where is Michael or
> Lee Danial Crocker? Did everyone fall asleep?" But alas, some things never change,
> to wit:
>
> "Michael S. Lorrey" wrote:
>
> > Yes, we've seen much bitching and whining from Paul, but little in the form of
> > constructive detail.
So you were bothered that nobody wanted to play, then when they did you didn't
like that either?
>
> So since I came to the debate (this time) with more questions than answers I'm a
> whiner now?
Essentially, yes. If you are asking a question, you should expect an answer. If
you don't like the answeres you are getting, perhaps you should propose your own
answers, and if you do so publicly, you should expect those answers to be
critically examined with as much rigor as you have given to those provided by
others. The bahavior known as 'being able to dish it out but not taking it' is
broadly recognised to be that of a whiner.
> It never ceases to amaze me the amount of dogmatism that runs rampant
> on this list when anyone begins to question the dogma of the tribe (cult?).
So, you are assuming that the list is merely here for you to post your opinions
without any critical examination by others? First you complain that nobody is
paying attention to you, then you complain that people are paying too much
attention to you. I think you need to decide exactly what it is you actually
want from this discourse.
> And in
> this case free-markets. I also prefer free-market solutions over others assuming
> they can do a better job! If you don't believe me try searching through the last 6
> years of archives. You will find that beyond all dogma or school of thought, my
> goal has always been about maximizing freedom and prosperity for as many people as
> possible.
THis is good to hear. I do recall that you once were not so imbued with statist
memes.
> Apparently unlike many on the list, I'm willing to look at, question and
> challenge any set of beliefs that might shed light on how best to accomplish that.
> Believe it or not, I'm trying to discover how free-markets can solve some of the
> toughest issues of fairness and protection of civil liberties. And who better to
> throw these tough 'devils advocate' questions to than the extropians themselves -
> the so called spearheaders of free-market ideas? Oh I forgot, "I have questioned
> the high sanctity of the free-market church." "Be gone with you heretic! Be gone!"
> You should really listen to yourselves sometimes. Ever wonder why the majority of
> people who come across so called Extropian(TM) thinking run away? More and more
> people I've come to know as true extropians have completely distanced themselves
> from this movement which to them reeks of excessive dogmatism, irrationalism,
> hostility, name calling and online bullying.
You seem to be getting very hypersensitive about this whole debate. You should
expect that if you make statements that have been proven roundly false over the
last 100 years, that people will call you on it.
>
> A personal note to Max More if your reading - I still admire you and what you're
> trying to achieve, but I have to tell you that the kindred people I know who also
> share the desire of maximizing their personal extropy through life extension,
> intelligence increase and space migration have written the Extropy Institute off
> long ago as a joke. Among the intelligentsia I more often than not find myself
> defending the institute more than promoting it. Why is that?
What intelligentsia is that? I personally find much of American intelligentsia,
especially that centering on New York City and generally the
Harvard/Brown/Columbia/Yale humanities crowd to be the greater joke. It is from
there that a large amount of the opposition to technological progress
originates. Such people accept as a given such dumb ideas that technology is
evil, individualism is bad, and commerce is a dirty thing. It should be pretty
much accepted that New Yorkers are going to laugh at anything 'not invented
here', especially if the original source is California.
>
> The most striking example is the simultaneous promotion of free-market solutions
> *without* the guts to back it up with detailed descriptions of how it will
> accomplish that. I'm talking about stepping out the clouds of abstraction and
> demonstrating how free-markets can solve such pressing issues as DeCSS, free speech
> and other civil liberties. At most what we have seen is an honest admission that
> everything including our own sovereignty as individuals is a commodity open to the
> highest bidder. "If you can't afford civil rights you don't deserve them." esd
> recently said. And my only response was to ask, "what is to keep such prices from
> rising beyond the reach of everyone but the most wealthy?" Needless to say this is
> a despicable point of view and class thinking and aristocracy at its worse! What
> more can I possibly say in response to such a statement - it has left me speechless
> and disgusted.
Be disgusted as you like. You can feel that way because you can AFFORD to feel
that way. How about that? Most historians, who are not blinded by their own
dogma, would agree that most all societies in history practice the morals and
ethics they can afford.
>
> In regards to Extropy (TM) I'm certain that it is this unquestioned and dogmatic
> attitude of free-markets which has driven more people away than all other things
> combined. I know that people like yourself and Greg Burch have done an admirable
> job in promoting free-marktets in a positive light - and I commend you both for it.
> I also know that the list has a life of its own outside of the institute, and you
> should not be blamed for what transpires on it. But you must also realize that the
> majority of people are being exposed to the Institute through _this mailing list_,
> and it's been scaring them away in droves.
>
> Until I can see a more honest and non-hostile attitude that is willing to discuss
> free-market solutions to pressing issues such as DeCSS and basic civil liberties,
> I'm boycotting the institute and this list indefinitely. This includes actively
> encouraging as many people as possible to avoid anything related to Extropy(TM)
> Institute as well as anyone else who advocates free market solutions that come at
> the expense of individual liberty.
>
This seems to me, at least, to be a rather petulant retort of "if I don't get my
way I'm picking up my blocks and going home". I personally cannot understand
where it is coming from. One thing that this list is renowned for is a
willingness to discuss things. We are particularly interested in NEW ideas. We
may get testy over people repeating DUMB ideas, as most of us dislike wasting
our time on what we see as old material.
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