From: Paul Hughes (paul@planetp.cc)
Date: Wed Sep 06 2000 - 01:08:46 MDT
Max More wrote:
> That said, I find your reaction, Paul, to be out of proportion. Clearly
> something else is going on here, and Mike's comment just triggered it. As
> Hal noted, several people had engaged you on this issue in a perfectly calm
> and reasonable manner.
For starters everyone, and I mean everyone I tell about Extropy, and who then seek
it out on this list and elsewhere has almost always come back to me and said and I
quote, "These people are a bunch of fascists!" or words to that effect. I'm not
kidding when I say this is by far the most common reaction. And I always get very
defensive at this response, and usually reply by saying, "how can you have a
problem with people trying to better themselves, to extend their lives, to reach
for the stars?!". And their response, "Paul, it has nothing to do with these
things, it has to do with their strong stance on free-markets and an almost
religious reverence for all things Randian". Since I am not a Randian scholar all
I can do is ask them to be more specific from which they sigh and say, "I have yet
to hear a clear and concise way how free-markets beyond any economic prosperity
they are likely to bring can rigorously be applied to the political and legal
arena such that basic civil rights protections and liberties can be guaranteed for
everyone rather than those with the most money to afford it". Or arguments to
that effect.
> Paul, your comments here puzzle me. You yourself have just stated that you
> strongly favor free markets. So do most of us here.
I'll will be more clear. I would like to see a liberalization and privatization
of everything if possible including civil protections. For example, I've
personally been convinced of the efficacy of decentralizing the creation of new
competing currencies. I have also been convinced that free-markets if left to
their own guises will likely increase overall economic prosperity for everyone.
Issues which I, and apparently everyone else have failed to demonstrate, is how
such free-market principles can be applied to solve such cases such as the DeCSS,
and basic civil rights protections for the poor. That is the crux of my issue
here - I do not hate the poor.
> Your rhetorical question " Ever wonder why the majority of people who come
> across so called Extropian(TM) thinking run away?" seems to express your
> personal frustration.
That is not an accurate assessment - it more accurately expresses my frustration
at having supported this movement both publicly and privately despite tremendous
opposition (described above) only to stubbornly realize after all these years that
what they were saying all along was right .
> Of course extropian thinking is not for everyone.
> That hardly makes it dogmatic. Yes, there have been some unpleasant
> exchanges on this list, but they are generally milder and less frequent
> that on many email lists. The recently reissued List Rules are designed to
> further enforce civility.
This is *not* about civility. Sure, it gets very tiresome. No, what it's really
about *is* the calm and rational posts advocating a system where only the wealthy
can afford basic civil protections. As several have repeatedly said - "The poor
by definition do not deserve anything". I find such a position entirely
despicable and I no longer want any part of it! Such a position is so revolting
and disgusting that I can no longer be associated with anyone advocating it,
regardless of how calm or they might present it.
> Paul, you go on to mention some unspecified "intelligentsia" who have
> written off Extropy Institute as a joke. I must say that, coming out of the
> blue, this seems like a mean-spirited comment.
No it is not a mean spirited comment since I wasn't the one who said Extropy
Institute was a joke. That would be like shooting myself in the foot. I'm simply
echoing the sentiments others have made.
> I would like to know who are these people who regard ExI (or just the
> List?) as a joke and why.
Naming people in a public forum like this without their permission would be a
gross violation of their trust. The list of people I know for sure hold this
opinion would include at least two people from the original counter-culture
movement, a founder of a now defunct cyber-cultural magazine (any guesses?), 2
with Ph.d's in computer science of which one is a researcher in Artificial
Intelligence, and several others who I have forgotten by name over the last
several years. Believe it or not there are a lot of other people out there
working on extropian ideas and technology who you probably do not know simply
because they are too busy or unsatisfied with the Extropy(tm) in particular. The
Ph.D working in Artificial Intelligence has been a close and personal friend for
over 10 years and mentioning his name here would be a violation of his trust.
> I'm sorry to hear that and hope you will reconsider. I find your response
> to be disproportionate. If you find the List discussions to be excessively
> pro-free market, why reject everything else about the Institute--the Extro
> conferences, the local lists and meetings, the website, extrodot.org, the
> Extropian Principles (which nowhere demand acceptance of specific economic
> or political systems), and our forthcoming knowledge management tool?
I don't reject those things Max. And I do believe that my initial call to boycott
Extropy(tm) might be an overreaction. However what I am trying to do (admittedly
on the fly) is show my public disgust at what I see as the dominating disdain so
many people have in this community for the poor and less fortunate. Call it my
moral duty to cry "Foul!" when I can no longer remain silent.
Paul Hughes
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