From: Chimera (chrematistic@mailandnews.com)
Date: Wed Jun 21 2000 - 17:03:13 MDT
Charlie Stross wrote:
On Tue, Jun 20, 2000 at 10:47:34PM -0400, Chimera wrote:
>
> The huge, dissatisfied underclass of poor immigrants would be an easy target
> for opportunistic agitators, and the already decimated, weak and decadent
> (predominantly white) ruling class would eventually be forced to hand over
> power -one way or another- to various "local" dictators/war lords. The last
> vestiges of civilization would then fall prey to ransacking, wanton
> destruction or simply neglect, and the US would be turned into 3rd world
> country.
>>Y'know, I seem to recall exactly this argument having been a political
football for the USA back in the ninteen-teens, with respect to emigrants
from eastern Europe. Funnily enough, it didn't happen that way ...<<
Those were different times, and different immigrants. Also, there were pauses
between the various waves of immigrants, in which society could adjust.
Nowadays it is a continuos onslaught. I'll quote from:
IMMIGRATION'S REAL VICTIMS: ALL AMERICAN GROUPS SUFFER BECAUSE OF IMMIGRATION
while their corrupted politicians play the violin and delay necessary
actions...by Samuel Francis (an excellent article, you really should read it,
see
http://webusers.anet-stl.com/~civil/imamericansharmed.html).
"The 30 million immigrants who have arrived in the last quarter century are
overwhelmingly from non-European Third World societies, and as a whole they
bring with them many of the ideas, habits, and manners that make their native
countries Third World in character: the lack of a work ethic, an inclination
toward authoritarian and often violent political behavior, and an
unfamiliarity and uneasiness with the religious, educational, hygienic,
scientific, and moral conventions of the West that most Americans take for
granted.
The U.S. Census Bureau has published at least two reports showing that by the
middle of the next century less than 60 years from now the United States will
cease to be a nation with a majority of its population descended from
Europeans and will acquire a non-European majority. The conclusion is simple:
Because of uncontrolled immigration, the United States is in grave danger of
becoming a Third World country within the next half century."
> Poor countries usually are the way they are because the people there don't
> have what it takes to create a prosperous, civilized society. You can blame
it
> on their big bad governments, but let's not forget that those governments
are
> just as much an expression of local culture as anything else.
>>"Ah, the poor uncivilized inferior peoples canot be trusted to govern
themselves!" was always the rallying cry of the imperialist.<<
As a matter of fact, colonial rule was -certainly its later years- by far the
best period in most 3rd world nations' history, with standards of living not
seen before or since. This is certainly the case in Africa.
>>A lot of
those countries you're complaining about are the way they are because
until relatively recently (20-60 years ago) they were run as imperial
dominions by one European colonial power or another -- or the US. Direct
imperial rule went out of fashion after 1945, but was largely replaced
by hands- off remote economic control; former colonial governments
that didn't play by the rules laid down by the colonial power tended to
undergo revolutions. Do you know what happened in Iran in 1956? Or in
Vietnam in 1949? A lot of your own country's history is tied up in those
dark colonial-era deeds ...<<
Excuses, excuses. The countries that always had the more capable people (like
portions of India, various Asian countries) did fairly well after colonial
rule, while others, whose populations were significantly less capable,
immediately started to decline to their former level, and would surely have
hit rock bottom had the "evil" ex-colonialists not continued to support them.
It's no coincidence that white-dominated South Africa became the economic
powerhouse of the whole region, and that Zimbabwe, where, until recently,
whites were heavily involved in economical matters did fairly well. Now that
they're chasing the whites out and ransacking their properties, they'll no
doubt soon join their continent's list of ultra-poor nations.
See also this great article which explains why Africa is the way it is:
http://www.amren.com/archive/jan92/9201ar.htm#cover
>>Now you -- a citizen of one of those rich colonial powers -- have the
sheer effrontery to say that it's essential to keep out _precisely_ those
natives of poor countries who are trying to improve their personal lot,
and to insist that collectivism (stay at home! stay at home!) is the
solution to their problems! I find that really ugly.<<
Tell me, what good will it do if we allow the 1st world to turn into a 3rd
world?
Who is going to feed the poor then, huh? Who is going to defend our relatively
free, democratic way of life (it may not be perfect, but it sure beats the
alternatives)? Who is going to find technological solutions to the world's
increasing problems? Who is going to make us Transhuman? Think before you hit
that keyboard, man! If you really want to help them, re-instate colonial rule
(no kidding) and/or help to advance the Singularity.
>>(I find it also
bespeaks a streak of racism that runs very close to the surface, but
that's another matter.)<<
Thanks to people like you, "racism" has become a rather meaningless word;
nowadays it can mean anything from hard-core KKK propaganda to the mildest
criticism of some clearly irrational PC ideology/policy. Say /anything/
remotely negative about certain ethnic groups (not whites, obviously) and
you're a "racist". Yeah, long live free speech...
>>The vast majority of these people are trying to
emigrate *because they want to better themselves*.<<
At pretty much all costs. And not really to better themselves, just to have
mo' money. Sure, can't really blame 'em, but if it's "you or them" the choice
is pretty easy. Again, feel free to give all your money to aid organizations
or whatever, no-one is stopping you. Go live in the 3rd world if you like it
so much, but /don't/ mess up civilized societies with your follies. It took
many generations and a lot of hard work to build what we have today (and what
a piece of work it is, compared to the rest of the world) yet people like you
would squander it all just to stroke their inflated, self-righteous egos.
>>That comes with a
willingness to work for a pittance at jobs that no privileged citizen of
a developed nation would touch, because that's the way to guarantee a
better future.<<
No, it's a dead end for most of them, and desperate people can be very
dangerous. Even if we assume that they can find a job and hold on to it, they
may be happy at first with their /relative/ wealth, but living conditions are
more expensive too in the free world, and they'll soon notice how poor they
really are compared to the "natives". They're only human; /of course/ they'll
soon want more than just the bare necessities; they'll want our flashy
consumer products which they'll see advertised all around them. But...most
won't have the skills and/or discipline to get decent jobs. Some will stay
poor, honest and miserable but others will take the easy way out and turn to
crime. Plenty of opportunities for /that/ in the land of the free, as the
gang-bangers know.
It's not so much the first wave of immigrants that's the problem as their
offspring. /They/ haven't witnessed the poverty of their parents' homeland;
they just know that they are at the bottom of their society with little hope
of moving up. That breeds frustration, envy, hatred and ultimately...violence.
>>Your country was *built* by people like that.<<
It wasn't built by people from the 3rd world, but by (mostly) Europeans. That
makes a lot of difference. Had immigration patterns been from the very
beginning like they have been during the last 30 years, the US /would/ now be
3rd world nation.
>>That you have the gall to
want to shut them out says more about your own inadequacy than anything
else I could write.<<
What a load of bull. No offence, but you, sir, have your head up your ass.
This archive was generated by hypermail 2.1.5 : Fri Nov 01 2002 - 15:29:22 MST