From: zeb haradon (zebharadon@hotmail.com)
Date: Sun Jun 18 2000 - 18:21:54 MDT
>From: "John M Grigg" <starman125@mailcity.com>
>Reply-To: extropians@extropy.com
>To: extropians@extropy.com
>Subject: Re: leaving religion and changing beliefs (I share my own
>experiences)
>Date: Sun, 18 Jun 2000 14:02:56 -0900
>
>On Sun, 18 Jun 2000 00:25:48
>zeb haradon wrote:
> >(this is a reply to "RE: ", about whether people leave religion suddenly
>or
> >gradually)
>
> >Never having been religious, I can't provide much personal insight, but
> >among people I know who have told me, it always seems to have been a
> >situation where there were gradual components, but then there was one
>even
> >or instance when they *really* gave it up.
> >- A friend of mine was raped, went to her bishop (Mormon) to confess
>about
> >it, he said things like "you knew what was going to happen when you let
>him
> >into your room when your parents were on vacation and now you're just
>trying
> >to say it wasn't your fault because you feel guilty", she never went to
> >church again and had a lot less respect for the religion after that, but
>it
> >was only after studying it for a while that she came to the more
>ontological
> >conclusion that was false.
>
>Her bishop really let her down. People must realize that Mormon bishop's
>and other clergy are first and foremost human beings who are capable of
>letting others down. That poor woman! Mormon Bishops are not fulltime,
>paid clergy(not to say that is the answer) and despite attempts by the
>general authorities(Mormon top leaders) to educate them in counseling, some
>of them are just not very compassionate or understanding. I have known
>many in my own life who were wonderful and caring men. I wish your friend
>had one of them as her bishop.
Just a little disclaimer: from my experience (which is admittedly all
hearsay), this is not common behavior for LDS bishops. This particular
bishop was not a model. Among other things, he'd been spotted in Nevada
gambling on a Sunday (that's 2 strikes for a Mormon).
>
> >- Another friend was born outside Utah, and then moved here to go to
> >college. I'm not sure how pervasive the Mormon religion is in everyday
>life
> >if you're a minority, but she said that it was definitely different here.
> >She had a mental breakdown (she didn't give me any details on this), and
> >then one day was just sitting and thinking about it, went out and bought
>a
> >coffee maker (Mormons cannot drink coffee), and never went to church
>again.
>
>Mormons put a emphasis on achieving perfection, this can lead some women
>who are too hard on themselves into a psychiatric hospital. It sounds like
>she is did not have a close circle of friends to be with her when she
>needed it most.
It's quite common.. the prozac usage here in Utah is phenomenal. I read
somewhere that it was 6 times the national average in Utah, I've read that
from two different sources, but both were quoting it from someplace else, I
am still on the lookout for a more reliable source on that, but
anectdotally, it's unbelievable. Meth is quite widely used as well.
>
>Even Mormons who are not used to the Utah Mormon subculture are in >for a
>big shock!! It is not just your faith down there, but everything else. A
>totally inclusive subculture that can intentionally or at least
>unintentionally leave nonmembers or those not "gung-ho" out in the cold.
>
Yes but it depends where you live. In a year of living in the Salt Lake
area, I've only been approached by missionaries once. The further south you
get the more saturated it is. In St. George and other areas further south,
there is still a polygamy subculture (they're not allowed in the official
church).
About marriage, there's an extreme pressure to mary young, and a sense that
you've failed at something if you're in your 20s and are not married yet.
You mentioned the movie "God's army", there is a line in it where a girl
missionary says to a boy missiory, "do you know why I went on a mission?",
he says "because you couldn't find anyone to mary you?", this is presented
as a humorous insult, and it really took me a second to get it. Friends who
are LDS tell me that whenever they are dating someone, even right after the
first date, their parents will ask things like "so do you see yourself
marrying this guy?". It's not just among Mormons either, although I assume
that the church is the root of this cultural trait.
"God's Army" by the way, I've heard it described as something even a non-LDS
person could enjoy.. I have to disagree. You really have to be immersed in
the culture to "get it" as a film. However, I highly recommend seeing it in
a theater, in Utah, for the cultural experiences. There is a scene involving
a faith healing which, to me.. well, my reaction was different from the rest
of the audience.
...
>
>Also, I feel my best chance of getting a good mate is within the Mormon
>church. I know some think, "you attend to meet women!" I partially do,
>but feel it is the best place for me to look for a good women. To the
>Mormon mind and heart being "married in the temple" is their fondest wish
>if it is to the right person. Again, more contradictions.
This is not unusual.. I can think of 3 situations off the top of my head
where a guy converted to the religion because he met a girl who wanted a
temple marriage.
...
>
>One reason I look forward to being cryosuspended and than reanimated, is so
>I have better sources of information on the true nature of reality and our
>own biology. Of course, even in the year 2050 or even later, while they
>will know so much more, there will still be many unanswered questions.
>
I kind of worry sometimes about how culture may change when/if I'm
reanimated. Given enough time who knows what things could be like. What if,
for example, freedom of speech is completely eliminated. It would be better
to live in such a world then not to live at all, but it causes me some
anxiety.
---------------------------------------------------
Zeb Haradon (zebharadon@hotmail.com)
My personal webpage:
http://www.inconnect.com/~zharadon/ubunix
A movie I'm directing:
http://www.elevatormovie.com
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