From: Emlyn \(hotmail\) (emlyn_oregan@hotmail.com)
Date: Thu Jun 15 2000 - 20:18:46 MDT
Zero, I like what you've had to say. Defending communism (or is that
socialism?) on this list is a brave move!!!
A distinction should really be made between Marxism, which is a bunch of
interesting stuff with a very democratic edge to it, and
Leninism/Stalinism/et al ism, which is what was put into practice in the
"communist" countries, and which actually bears little resemblance to what
Marx had to say. State socialism as practiced in the 20th century has been
shown to fail (under less than ideal circumstances; that is, plonked in the
middle of a 300+ year old world capitalist system, which was extremely
hostile to it). Marxism, idealistic as it is, has never really had a run. I
think that Zero's point that socialism can work well in an abundant future
has merit. Certainly capitalism will also "work", as in continuing, but
measuring it along any metrics related to equity are going to show enormous
shortcomings, more so as technology provides more surplus without the need
for human labour, because the surplus produced by technology is just not
going to get around.
I'm hoping marxism doesn't get a run, unless someone can postulate a dynamic
variant. The self-organising power of dynamic social systems is well
demonstrated by capitalism, nasty beast that it is, and that's something I
wouldn't like to see lost.
Emlyn
----- Original Message -----
From: Zero Powers <zero_powers@hotmail.com>
To: <extropians@extropy.com>
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 9:29 AM
Subject: Re: Commie Nonsense
> >From: Brian D Williams <talon57@well.com>
>
> >Look, everyone goes through a "socialist" phase, I did to. But the
> >reality is it doesn't work unless you put a gun to peoples heads.
> >After a good taste of capitalism socialism won't do except for
> >those who have a "perfectly good reason" why they won't pull their
> >own weight.
>
> I'm not saying communism has worked in the past. I'm not saying it works
in
> the present. I'm saying that it has possibilities for the future,
> especially if/when material wealth becomes equivolent to information.
>
> I'm a willing capitalist now. But there are many in our society who don't
> have my luck and/or ability. Some of them live at a level of subsistence
> which IMO is beneath that fit for a human. That saddens me. I believe
that
> someday we'll be able to do better. That's *all* I was saying.
>
> -Zero
>
> "I like dreams of the future better than the history of the past"
> --Thomas Jefferson
>
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>
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