--- Log opened Thu Mar 17 11:59:22 2011
11:59 -!- kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] has joined #avm
11:59 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 5 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
11:59 -!- Irssi: Join to #avm was synced in 1 secs
11:59 < kanzure> hi james_MITRE 
11:59 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 5 nicks [3 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
11:59 < kanzure> james_MITRE: the open manufacturing group hangs out in ##hplusroadmap
11:59 < kanzure> logs: http://gnusha.org/logs/
12:18 -!- operator [62e5dc39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.229.220.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
18:48 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-71-170-191-118.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #avm
--- Day changed Fri Mar 18 2011
07:21 -!- BRIAN_Dassault [62e0dc31@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.224.220.49] has joined #avm
07:22 -!- BRIAN_Dassault [62e0dc31@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.224.220.49] has left #avm []
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--- Day changed Sat Mar 19 2011
10:45 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-118-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #avm
--- Day changed Sun Mar 20 2011
09:27 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-118-239.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has left #avm []
09:32 -!- sseehh__ [~seh@c-68-63-138-197.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
13:26 -!- operator2 [~lwood@c-98-229-220-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: Operation timed out]
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20:07 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 4 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal]
20:07 < kanzure> hi all
--- Day changed Mon Mar 21 2011
01:06 -!- avm_operator [~androirc@169.sub-174-252-34.myvzw.com] has joined #avm
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01:09 < thatMITREguy> exit
01:09 < thatMITREguy> exit
01:09 < thatMITREguy> exit
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06:19 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-79-43.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #avm
07:36 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 3 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 3 normal]
10:00 -!- fbt [5b672832@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.103.40.50] has joined #avm
10:23 -!- fbt [5b672832@gateway/web/freenode/ip.91.103.40.50] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
11:41 -!- someuser [~androirc@194.sub-174-253-192.myvzw.com] has joined #avm
12:09 -!- someuser is now known as avm_operator
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13:27 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 5 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 5 normal]
13:48 < kanzure> JayDugger: can you leave this channel please? i'll tell you when it's "safe" to come back
14:04 -!- avm_operator [~androirc@194.sub-174-253-192.myvzw.com] has left #avm ["AndroIRC"]
14:31 -!- operator [ada08ac2@gateway/web/freenode/ip.173.160.138.194] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
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17:05 -!- avm_operator [~androirc@194.sub-174-253-192.myvzw.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 248 seconds]
17:33 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-79-43.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has left #avm []
17:37 -!- jb_ops [~androirc@194.sub-174-253-192.myvzw.com] has joined #avm
17:42 -!- avm_operator [18127a65@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.18.122.101] has joined #avm
17:46 -!- jb_ops [~androirc@194.sub-174-253-192.myvzw.com] has left #avm ["AndroIRC"]
17:46 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 3 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 3 normal]
--- Log closed Mon Mar 21 17:46:32 2011
--- Log opened Mon Mar 21 17:49:23 2011
17:49 -!- kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] has joined #avm
17:49 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 2 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
17:49 !calvino.freenode.net [freenode-info] channel flooding and no channel staff around to help? Please check with freenode support: http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#gettinghelp
17:49 -!- Irssi: Join to #avm was synced in 1 secs
--- Log closed Mon Mar 21 17:49:25 2011
--- Log opened Mon Mar 21 17:57:42 2011
17:57 -!- kanzure [~kanzure@131.252.130.248] has joined #avm
17:57 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 3 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
17:57 -!- Irssi: Join to #avm was synced in 1 secs
17:58 -!- mode/#avm [+o operator2] by avm_operator
18:00 -!- avm_operator [18127a65@gateway/web/freenode/ip.24.18.122.101] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
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--- Day changed Tue Mar 22 2011
08:10 -!- james_MITRE [824c2b55@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.76.43.85] has joined #avm
10:05 -!- JayDugger [~duggerj@pool-173-74-79-43.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
11:36 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 3 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 2 normal]
12:25 -!- james_MITRE [824c2b55@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.76.43.85] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
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14:13 -!- avm_operator [~ubuntu@ec2-184-73-25-24.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #avm
14:45 -!- avm_operator2 [824c2b55@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.76.43.85] has joined #avm
15:12 -!- mode/#avm [+mprt] by operator2
15:14 -!- avm_operator2 [824c2b55@gateway/web/freenode/ip.130.76.43.85] has quit [Quit: Page closed]
15:18 -!- avm_operator is now known as operator3
15:25 -!- operator3 [~ubuntu@ec2-184-73-25-24.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Quit: leaving]
15:26 -!- jbtest [~ubuntu@ec2-184-73-25-24.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
15:31 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 2 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 1 normal]
15:41 -!- avm_operator [~ubuntu@ec2-184-73-25-24.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #avm
15:43 <@operator2> looks right
15:44 -!- mode/#avm [+o avm_operator] by operator2
16:02 -!- avm_operator [~ubuntu@ec2-184-73-25-24.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Ping timeout: 251 seconds]
--- Day changed Wed Mar 23 2011
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--- Day changed Fri Mar 25 2011
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--- Day changed Sat Mar 26 2011
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08:52 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 3 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 3 normal]
09:09 -!- nightcarnage [~nightcarn@c-98-193-253-145.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #avm
09:23 -!- testuser [~jbarkley@c-98-229-220-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #avm
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09:39 -!- testuser is now known as james
09:40 -!- james is now known as Guest55528
09:43 -!- Guest55528 is now known as avm_operator
09:46 -!- avm_operator [~jbarkley@c-98-229-220-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: leaving]
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13:18 -!- storrgie [~storrgie@99-21-124-167.lightspeed.livnmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #avm
13:49 -!- Laurenceb [~laurence@host86-146-40-121.range86-146.btcentralplus.com] has joined #avm
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14:25 -!- mode/#avm [-m] by tomaw
14:25 < tomaw> Hi guys.  I understand you've managed to make a couple of mistakes getting this channel ready for your chat on monday but I can't work out if you're planning on using this channel or freenode for any time after that.
15:17 < operator2_> yes, there is a good chance that we'll use it after Monday
15:18 < operator2_> either for future meetings or we may even try and make it sort of our official program channel/hangout
15:18 < tomaw> then it's worth you guys registering as a formal group with freenode/pdpc and us allocating you this channel properly
15:19 < tomaw> you should take a look over http://freenode.net/group_registration.shtml and see if you think that's suitable
15:19 < operator2_> yes, seems like it is applicable
15:20 -!- mode/#avm [-r] by tomaw
15:20 < tomaw> cool.  if someone in a suitable position fills it out I don't mind allocating the channel to them
15:21 < tomaw> in case that can't happen in time I've removed the registration requirement from the channel so your initial chat can go ahead as documented :)
15:21 < operator2_> thanks, got it
16:04 -!- operator2_ [62e5dc39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.229.220.57] has quit [Ping timeout: 252 seconds]
16:22 < kanzure> tomaw: i thought they registered thsi channel already
16:22 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 4 nicks [0 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 4 normal]
16:22 < kanzure> nevermind, it doesn't matter
16:24 -!- avm_operator_ [62e5dc39@gateway/web/freenode/ip.98.229.220.57] has joined #avm
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--- Day changed Sun Mar 27 2011
06:43 < storrgie> hello (testing)
06:43 < storrgie> ahhh, most excellent
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13:19 -!- mode/#avm [+o avm_operator_] by tomaw
13:19 -!- mode/#avm [-s+c] by ChanServ
15:32 -!- Irssi: #avm: Total of 4 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 3 normal]
15:32 < kanzure> when's the chat, avm_operator_ 
16:26 <@avm_operator_> starts 11:00am ET
19:54 <@avm_operator_> closing to mome-
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--- Day changed Mon Mar 28 2011
00:15 < blank_f03> ?
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04:43 -!- mode/#avm [+o avm_operator] by avm_operator_
04:43 -!- mode/#avm [+o james_MITRE] by avm_operator_
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07:22 < rob|> darpa
07:22 < rob|> oops
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07:46 -!- mode/#avm [+o paul_darpa] by james_MITRE
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07:51 -!- avm_operator_ changed the topic of #avm to: #avm Component, Context, and Manufacturing Model Library 1 (C2M2L-1) for Adaptive Vehicle Make (AVM)
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08:01 <@paul_darpa> we'll get started in a few minutes... i see that folks are still trickling in
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08:05 <@paul_darpa> alright--why don't we get started
08:05 <@paul_darpa> i am paul eremenko, the darpa program manager for the adaptive vehicle make portfolio
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08:05 <@paul_darpa> the purpose of today's session is to solicit comments and feedback on our impending solicitation called c2m2l-1
08:06 <@paul_darpa> the elegant acronym is pronounced "camel one"
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08:06 <@paul_darpa> in case you were wondering :)
08:06 <@paul_darpa> so mostly i expect folks to provide feedback
08:06 <@paul_darpa> since the solicitation is draft, i am reluctant to answer any specific questions about it
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08:06 <@paul_darpa> but i am happy to do q&a on darpa contracting in general
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08:07 <@paul_darpa> so, since folks are still trickling in--why don't i start with a general call for questions about darpa, avm, etc.
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08:07 <@paul_darpa> aspecific to camel one
08:07 <@paul_darpa> don't all ask at once :)
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08:08 < krishna> Is the cost of manufacturing vehicles is the goal behind this BAA?
08:08 < rajeev_ford> Do you have a current legacy system in place to manage your models?
08:08 < jonatkins_usarmy> paul, what is the overall endstate we are trying to accomplish with the avm?
08:09 <@paul_darpa> ok let me take krishna's and jonatkins's questions first
08:09 <@paul_darpa> avm (adaptive vehicle make) is a portfolio of several programs
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08:09 <@paul_darpa> one is aimed at design tools
08:09 <@paul_darpa> another at manufacturing facilities
08:09 <@paul_darpa> there's a STEM outreach effort
08:09 <@paul_darpa> etc.
08:09 <@paul_darpa> you can read all that
08:09 <@paul_darpa> so i won't belabor it
08:10 <@paul_darpa> the top-level goal of avm is to compress the development timelines for military systems by 5x-10x
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08:10 <@paul_darpa> and so we are tackling a few different contributors to the development time
08:10 < nathan_darpa_> \msg paul_darpa got kicked off, had to rejoin, but old nick still active - this one is your DPM
08:11 <@paul_darpa> this particular BAA (c2m2l-1) look to build model libraries to drive the design tools and programmable manufacturing facilities
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08:11 < Bob_DELMIA> Don't METAII and Vehicle Forge have to solidify somewhat before we know the environment and language for building models?
08:12 <@paul_darpa> yes
08:12 <@paul_darpa> that also goes to rajeev's question
08:12 <@paul_darpa> meta--which is the design tools program--is basically a set of formal methods for verifying cyber-electro-mechanical systems
08:12 <@paul_darpa> or designing systems that are (probabilistically) correct-by-construction
08:13 <@paul_darpa> it's predicated on a metalanguage representation of such systems
08:13 <@paul_darpa> which is not yet complete
08:13 <@paul_darpa> so c2m2l-1 is a bit early
08:13 <@paul_darpa> it would be a lot easier if we could specify a metalanguage
08:13 <@paul_darpa> for everyone to use
08:13 <@paul_darpa> alas contracting takes a while
08:13 <@paul_darpa> so we want to get started
08:14 <@paul_darpa> there will likely be some conversion and translation of semantics that must happen on the back end
08:14 <@paul_darpa> more specifically to rajeev's question
08:14 <@paul_darpa> we don't have a model management environment
08:15 <@paul_darpa> there will be a repository that's under development (vehicleforge)
08:15 <@paul_darpa> but the actual model management tools should be provided with each set of models proposed under c2m2l
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08:15 <@paul_darpa> (these are things like indexing services, semantic definitions, etc.)
08:15 < AndroUser> hello
08:16 <@paul_darpa> would it help if the BAA had a separate technical area for model management?
08:16 < TATYANA_XSB> Is there a draft description  of this language? It would be interesting to know the depth of product semantics specified there
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08:17 < rajeev_ford> Here at Ford we use a commercial PLM (Product Lifecylce Management) solution, are you looking to build a specific solution from ground up?
08:17 <@paul_darpa> to tatyana's question--there is not really. we have four candidates currently under development... and we have yet to pick one
08:17 <@paul_darpa> they are quite different in their approach
08:18 <@paul_darpa> rajeev--the goal is not to develop a PLM suite, in fact some of the meta performers are trying to marry up their solutions to commercial PLM suites (which is great)
08:18 <@paul_darpa> the goal is to develop methods for formal verification (at least probabilistically)
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08:19 < Bernie_> What do you mean by 'candidate currently under development' - are they based on commercial products or research efforts?
08:19 < AndroUser> why not go with something less structured llike mediawiki and let the community dictate the data structure
08:19 < AndroUser> I fear a commercial plm
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08:20 <@paul_darpa> bernie--we have several entities (some industry, some academia) looking at different approaches to a formal metalanguage... e.g., a few approaches are basically sysml with formal semantics
08:20 <@paul_darpa> androuser--the data structure for c2m2l is entirely open to for each proposer to define
08:21 <@paul_darpa> i think that comports with your suggestion, no?
08:21 < Mike_ARL> In the draft, you talk about how your goal is a flow like Platform Based Design, but more heterogeneous. Can you expound?  How much more is enough?
08:21 <@paul_darpa> sure--PBD as practiced today principally does electronics
08:22 <@paul_darpa> we want to be able to do mechanical systems, fluid systems, etc.
08:22 <@paul_darpa> with a comparable level of formalism
08:22 <@paul_darpa> but again, those design tools are already being worked
08:22 <@paul_darpa> we are looking to develop the model libraries (i.e., the "platform" in the PBD sense of the word) to drive the tools
08:23 <@paul_darpa> so
08:24 <@paul_darpa> any comments on BAA structure?
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08:24 < Mike_ARL> The model libraries should ultimately relate to a specific *consistent* platform, so you'd be guaranteed to be able to piece together at least one entire vehicle. But I haven't seen that unifying effort.
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08:25 < Mike_ARL> My thought is, that could be explicitly called out as a task in your BAA
08:25 <@paul_darpa> that's a fair comment, mike
08:25 <@paul_darpa> the question back to you, is how do we do that without requiring one performer to provide an end-to-end solution?
08:25 <@paul_darpa> i.e., if we want a bunch of people to come in with models in their area of domain expertise
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08:26 <@paul_darpa> that are only a small subset of the overall platform
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08:26 <@paul_darpa> how do we go about doing that?
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08:27 <@paul_darpa> except by "stitching" the platform from a variety of different responses to the BAA
08:27 < Bob_Alcoa> Are advanced vehicle materials and structures considered within the scope of "electro-mechanical" systems?
08:27 < Mike_ARL> One thought is for DARPA to provide a base single instance instantiation as the "center point" of a trade space
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08:27 <@paul_darpa> single instance of what?
08:27 <@paul_darpa> an entire vehicle?
08:27 < krishna> what level of fault tolerance in the model checker/design tools
08:27 < Mike_ARL> Yes
08:28 <@paul_darpa> (or the components needed for an entire vehicle?)
08:28 <@paul_darpa> well that's hard!
08:28 <@paul_darpa> we need to hire someone to do that
08:28 <@paul_darpa> and that would be an acceptable response to the BAA!
08:28 < Mike_ARL> Take an existing vehicle?
08:28 <@paul_darpa> but you still have to go characterize all the components in it
08:29 <@paul_darpa> i would posit that we do not have the level of characterization needed in any existing vehicle
08:29 < Mike_ARL> I agree
08:29 <@paul_darpa> e.g., component-level thermal models, electromagnetic emissions, etc.
08:29 <@paul_darpa> so someone still has to do that
08:30 <@paul_darpa> to bob's question--if by "materials and structures" you mean the structure of the vehicle, then the answer is "no." we expect that to be part of c2m2l-2 or a subsequent solicitation.
08:30 <@paul_darpa> this one is focused on the drivetrain and mobility subsystems
08:30 < Bob_Alcoa> thanks.
08:30 <@paul_darpa> though material properties are plenty relevant to that too!
08:31 < Bob_DELMIA> at least you would start with mostly trusted components if you started builidng the library around an existing vehicle's drevetrain
08:31 <@paul_darpa> krishna--not sure what you mean? tolerance to what kinds of faults?
08:31 < krishna> 5 of faults that can be tolerated/
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08:31 < afosterw> Has anyone considered using a quasi-natural language approach to the meta language (or a parser to generate the meta-language) that might allow harvesting data from current documentation?  That would also allow less technical people contribute in a meaningful way
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08:31 <@paul_darpa> bob--there is nothing that prevents someone in the BAA as drafted from coming in with an existing vehicle's drivetrain, is there?
08:32 <@paul_darpa> afosterw--no, no one is looking at that. interesting idea though. know what the state-of-the-art is? and where i can find it?
08:34 <@paul_darpa> krishna--faults in what? are we talking about errors in the model? or "run-time" faults during vehicle operation?
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08:34 < krishna> Yes, error in the model
08:34 < krishna> Both
08:35 <@paul_darpa> model uncertainty is an interesting question
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08:35 <@paul_darpa> it drives the probability with which we can verify the overall system to be correct
08:36 <@paul_darpa> the current BAA draft kind of punts on the question
08:36 <@paul_darpa> and say find a "sweet spot" between cost and model fidelity
08:36 <@paul_darpa> we are trying to estimate average model uncertainties needed for a reasonable overall system verification
08:36 <@paul_darpa> but we are not there yet
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08:37 <@paul_darpa> lots of quiet people out there
08:38 < Marino_DS> Are you planning to clarify the general framework of component integration (interfaces between components, reporting, ...)?
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08:38 <@paul_darpa> marino--yes and no
08:38 < rajeev_ford> Specifically on TA3, are you targeting exisiting facilities or is the thought to have greenfield facilites?
08:38 <@paul_darpa> yes in the sense that we have received a number of comments requesting better definition of component semantics
08:39 <@paul_darpa> no in the sense that the actual interfaces of a component are what they are... there is nothing for us to define. so it's part of the model to describe the interfaces
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08:39 <@paul_darpa> rajeev--we are looking for models of existing manufacturing equipment
08:39 < afosterw> paul_darpa: No I'm not really an NLP guy, my line of thinking came more from a) I've generally seen that "ML's" that get used a lot tend to be replaced or generated by other faster more consumable (easy to read and write) ways of modeling the particular data structure b) this Meta-language must already exist to a large degree in the world already as this information is communicated successfully already c) a lot of knowledge might be in the hea
08:40 < afosterw> that being said NLP is notoriously difficult and would most likely just add another layer of possible error
08:42 <@paul_darpa> actually natural language extraction seems like an entirely reasonable thing to add to the BAA
08:42 < Mark_PSU> Paul - can you elaborate on the differences you are looking for between Tech Area 3 and iFAB tech Area 2? Are you expecting C2M2L to just expand the processes using the iFAB scheme/library?
08:42 <@paul_darpa> thanks for the suggestion afosterw
08:42 < afosterw> np
08:43 <@paul_darpa> mark--there is not a fundamental difference between c2m2l TA3 and ifab TA2
08:43 <@paul_darpa> we've clarified the verbiage a bit
08:43 <@paul_darpa> and looking for more proposals in this area as the ifab baa is about to close
08:44 < Mark_PSU> Will there be an iFAB library structure upon which to build, or do you want more?
08:45 < Brian__> Paul - could you clarify your response to Marino's framework question?   TA 2 and 4 will need a framework to support the multi-domain modeling.  Was this already covered in the earlier BAAs?
08:46 <@paul_darpa> mark--no current intent to specify a particular data structure/synta
08:46 <@paul_darpa> *syntax
08:46 < Mark_PSU> OK - thanks
08:46 <@paul_darpa> in theory, it should be easy to convert various models as the semantics for manufacturing equipment are pretty simple (at least compared to vehicle components)
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08:46 <@paul_darpa> so it should just be syntactic, mostly
08:47 <@paul_darpa> brian--yes, we call this framework a "metalanguage"
08:47 <@paul_darpa> it's being developed under the META program
08:47 <@paul_darpa> but is not ready for prime time
08:47 <@paul_darpa> we still have a few candidates
08:47 <@paul_darpa> and haven't settled on one
08:48 <@paul_darpa> so the hope is that the models developed under c2m2l-1 can be translated from the proposer's preferred representation into our target representation later on
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08:48 < Martin_rpi> There are many types of manufacturing equipment some traditional and some new are there any priorities?
08:49 <@paul_darpa> we would like it to be relevant to making a drivetrain and mobility subsystem for a ground vehicle
08:49 <@paul_darpa> aside from that, it can be non-traditional (e.g., 3D printing) or traditional (e.g., subtractive manufacturing, etc.)
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08:52 < Martin_rpi> Some of the new types of equipment are being used more aggresively outside of the drivetrain context so would it be OK to show a mixture?
08:52 <@paul_darpa> it needs to be relevant
08:52 <@paul_darpa> whether it's used today or not is not the issue
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08:52 < Bernie_> How do you envisage the inegraion between the meta language (for defining the various systems and sub-systems), and the 3D (virtual) implementation of these systems in some sort of mockup / simulator?
08:53 <@paul_darpa> but, just as an example (which may or may not be correct), composites fab process models may not be relevant to a drivetrain if there are no composite parts or real likelihood thereof
08:53 <@paul_darpa> (that may or may not be a true assertion--intended to be illustrative)
08:54 <@paul_darpa> bernie--that's the purpose of the meta design and verification tools that are being developed
08:56 < Martin_rpi> How about the properties of the manufacturing equipment such as accuracy prediction?
08:56 <@paul_darpa> martin--what about it?
08:56 <@paul_darpa> is it not in the draft BAA?
08:56 <@paul_darpa> if it's not, i agree that it should be
08:57 < Mike_ARL> To revisit the entire vehicle concept, I would think someone who could propose a coherent set of components in their libraries that could result in at least one instance of a vehicle drivetrain would be A Good Thing, correct?
08:57 < teekoh> can i get a link to this BAA you speak of? (new to the scene and need some reading material to keep up please)
08:57 <@paul_darpa> mike--yes, absolutely
08:58 <@paul_darpa> teekoh-- try https://www.fbo.gov/spg/ODA/DARPA/CMO/DARPA-SN-11-27/listing.html the draft BAA text is linked in the right margin
08:59 < teekoh> thank you!
09:00 < Bob_DELMIA> Doesn't this get back to the Army properly defining and purchasing a Technical Data Package from the OEM?
09:01 <@paul_darpa> and mike--we'll make sure that we clarify that in the final BAA
09:01 < Mike_ARL> rgr
09:01 <@paul_darpa> bob--not sure exactly what you mean?
09:01 <@paul_darpa> what about the army buying a tdp?
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09:02 < Bob_DELMIA> Your are asking for the intelectual property of the OEM, doesn't he have a right to get paid for it?
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09:02 <@paul_darpa> actually in most cases i think we are asking for the intellectual property of the tier-1, tier-2, and even tier-3 component suppliers
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09:03 <@paul_darpa> and we can either buy it from them
09:03 <@paul_darpa> or a third party can independently characterize their components
09:03 <@paul_darpa> (note that characterize != reverse engineer)
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09:06 <@paul_darpa> ultimately (and this is TA4) we would like to create an incentive scheme for the component suppliers to reveal their component models voluntarily
09:06 <@paul_darpa> as a way of marketing to the OEMs, govt, etc.
09:08 < Martin_rpi> Which is more useful modeling the wide range of machines used in powertrain, or modeling a smaller number in depth including for example process/machine accuracy prediction?
09:08 <@paul_darpa> i think ultimately we want both--a wide range, modeled in depth
09:09 <@paul_darpa> if there is doubt, we always encourage (and i think the BAA makes this point, but we can amplify it) structuring proposals with options
09:09 <@paul_darpa> so that you don't have to guess what the "right" scope is that makes darpa happy
09:10 <@paul_darpa> because what we can fund always depends on a variety of factors--which i can't predict (or i would happily share them with you)
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09:12 < teekoh> can you share what key factors have played vital in previous projects?
09:13 <@paul_darpa> can you be more specific?
09:13 <@paul_darpa> key factors of what?
09:13 <@paul_darpa> vital to what?
09:15 <@paul_darpa> well since the comments and questions are slowing down (and teekoh, i'd be happy to come back to yours if you clarify).....
09:15 <@paul_darpa> i just wanted to make another plug for providing your thoughts
09:15 <@paul_darpa> you can do so via e-mail for the next few weeks
09:15 <@paul_darpa> to darpa-sn-11-27@darpa.mil
09:15 < teekoh> im trying to rephrase...
09:16 <@paul_darpa> this is intended to be your opportunity to shape the solicitation
09:16 <@paul_darpa> such that YOU are happy responding to it
09:16 < Mark_GDLS> I joined late due to firewall issues and can't view if this question has been already asked: The BAA talks about using META methods with C2M2L models.  Will you provide us access to META methods so we can better describe how our models will work with them?
09:16 <@paul_darpa> we've gotten a bunch of feedback--and we WILL make significant changes based on it
09:16 <@paul_darpa> we are happy for more
09:16 <@paul_darpa> this is intended to be more than a pro forma exercise
09:16 <@paul_darpa> so please exercise the opportunity
09:16 <@paul_darpa> ok--end of speech
09:17 <@paul_darpa> mark--in principle, yes. we will provide all the meta tools, the language spec, etc. under an open source license
09:17 <@paul_darpa> but they are nowhere near ready for prime time
09:17 <@paul_darpa> and probably won't be prior to the initial response date for the c2m2l baa
09:18 <@paul_darpa> though we'll try to get *something* out
09:18 <@paul_darpa> even if it's not the tools or language spec
09:18 < Brian__> When is the formal BAA for 'camel 1' anticipated for release?
09:18 <@paul_darpa> i understand that it would make things a lot simpler and clearer
09:18 < Joe_RR> what is your deadline to finish BAA and go to print?
09:19 <@paul_darpa> brian/joe--the draft closes for comment in mid-april
09:19 <@james_MITRE> names
09:19 <@paul_darpa> we hope to get a final version out by the end of april, or maybe mid-may at the latest
09:19 <@paul_darpa> it depends on how much constructive input we get :-)
09:20 < Joe_RR> I have to drop off at 12:30.  Can we get a log of this session sent to us?
09:20 <@paul_darpa> no
09:20 <@paul_darpa> because we don't have people's e-mail addresses
09:20 <@paul_darpa> we might consider posting it on fedbizopps
09:21 <@paul_darpa> i am not sure
09:21 < Joe_RR> That would be good.  I will email in my comments later this week.
09:21 <@paul_darpa> fantastic--thank you joe
09:22 <@paul_darpa> i encourage everyone to do the same
09:22 <@paul_darpa> it'll make for a better BAA
09:22 < Mike_ARL> It would be interesting to reverse-apply the META tools to an existing platform (an unclass UGV?)  through crowd sourcing. Perhaps under the education effort?
09:23 <@paul_darpa> i agree that it would be an interesting experiment
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09:24 <@paul_darpa> ok
09:24 <@paul_darpa> i think we'll wrap up then
09:25 <@paul_darpa> unless there are last-minute thoughts, comments, ...?
09:25 < teekoh> can i throw out one...
09:25 < teekoh> why not try setting up or running a darpa hackerspace?
09:25 < teekoh> or are the goals just to cumbersome??
09:25 <@paul_darpa> you mean a physical hackerspace?
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09:26 < teekoh> yes, providing tools is probably one limitation on a lot of peoples behalf
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09:27 <@paul_darpa> we, as an agency, try not to get into the infrastructure business (e.g., paying rent, etc.)
09:27 <@paul_darpa> however, the goal is to make the tools open source
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09:27 <@paul_darpa> and in case where there are commercial tools that might be expensive, we might be open to getting a license for existing hacker spaces
09:28 <@paul_darpa> to the extent that they get used for DARPA's programs
09:28 <@paul_darpa> e.g., to design the FANG vehicle
09:28 < teekoh> make sense, i would just assume that maybe ideas and such wouldnt be as restricted (more open sourced) if people just had the tools to accomplish it
09:28 <@paul_darpa> yep
09:28 <@paul_darpa> i am with you
09:29 <@paul_darpa> that's the basic premise of the whole program portfolio
09:29 <@paul_darpa> democratize the innovation process, lower the barriers to participation
09:29 <@james_MITRE> People should be encouraged to connect with community spaces such as those on the list at hackerspaces.org
09:29 <@james_MITRE> hackerspaces.org also runs periodic "synchronous hackathons" and global hackerspace hackathon competitions that could be leveraged
09:30 <@paul_darpa> that seems reasonable
09:30 < teekoh> i dig it
09:30 <@paul_darpa> good suggestion teekoh
09:30 <@paul_darpa> we'll see if we can do a better job integrating with that community
09:30 <@paul_darpa> we'll ask mudge for help :-)
09:31 <@paul_darpa> alright well thanks everyone!
09:31 <@paul_darpa> i'll hang around for a bit longer
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09:31 <@paul_darpa> in case there are straggler questions
09:31 <@paul_darpa> but i think we'll call it a day
09:31 <@paul_darpa> both lt col wiedenman and i are available by e-mail any time. and also through the comment mailbox.
09:31 < teekoh> thanks paul! good luck!!
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09:31 <@paul_darpa> thanks teekoh
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09:32 < krishna> You all have good day
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10:34 < DimiA_NREC> test - what is the anticipated time of the final RFP?
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15:12 < kanzure> hi all
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15:12 < kanzure> james_MITRE: when does it start?
15:12 < kanzure> nevermind
15:15 < kanzure> same old same ld
15:15 < kanzure> i'm a little disappointed in the quality of questions directed at paul
15:16 < kanzure> not much of a discussion