Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9E280499 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 14:18:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 00:06:04 by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from nm40-vm7.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm40-vm7.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.229.183]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63B101A3 for ; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 14:18:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.ro; s=s2048; t=1438179131; bh=1phL7G6GNsXDpEZB/T/zSHO7nkIku+k80f986YOyiOE=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=ALUd5XmVjm8umm0u53n6kNpsnuV6fSDJ/7dmZUMtN/fsTnr3VlgCHemhii16mQvVWOSFGvtIei7WTLf9lelNIDOMXeX+1UCJtjRJa7w8VPwA+t8CmoyN3fsr2z7HV/m9ugl7NnGCZTNhJubyLHQH1cI8wz4WD6wwLP0vXW30+vaVvwxWY9JEi0p2Nc4H+r6f27EAeBO/M4FQqGyZyrilA1c36mP7m78iMmztwGcvuUa0xT3YWx74zH/T1jmSHpk0ISR1K6kMddronuJQ353EW3nkp9PjeR4RqhTk2StdV6p8Yw54mx1aesA1n/sXtEoZOE/IxD254Gyf38Wd0XSIiw== Received: from [127.0.0.1] by nm40.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2015 14:12:11 -0000 Received: from [98.138.226.176] by nm40.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2015 14:09:23 -0000 Received: from [212.82.98.48] by tm11.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2015 14:09:22 -0000 Received: from [212.82.98.81] by tm1.bullet.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2015 14:09:22 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1018.mail.ir2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 29 Jul 2015 14:09:22 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-4 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 733370.95451.bm@omp1018.mail.ir2.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: 58vDRyEVM1lDx5XlM0WQ6onroMoN_yFgfw.82S4gj6Oz7QU2X8Ty_idiBbd12sS mMpuL2IX4nnYeS8W9I.6B2lmtUA0eKNV6FwB9fS33cXK1y9jyFhfuwLZWZLGz_FMMvg7_KQVzo.Y EmUIgjrFWeMMBkyooHvVJul8EQZE.A8Ynl7rkDHSjpyS1jmyjoj4L7T9mgoRCPDGg2F6RFmMe.wZ Zu_xFdx4XFCVKFb3V6FuZiQ_hzKg5K0NCk_Z5iqGSgRMU_bQUxX3Ff9KH4EDduEm5QhVPoSqW1sn aBtrY_gTpq3OrannkMFIaMtrR2L7tYmJ1dnXfVyGWAq1ugDlRRbrAzzVm3VkbzFh5kZyPi9yJYAY L7800Bo6fgqLFI1VnVGqyFe_wERmSOO__xU7xqMUtCO4t2H377As5HDIr4Y9LYbi4a7HaG2IVNYY vPAWg7JZ3X2ZBD0lli9nKItoScmXTp0NG6kI_GCKlBZrcjvLlphrzChy.8J9HgmpvDw-- Received: by 217.12.9.8; Wed, 29 Jul 2015 14:09:22 +0000 Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 14:09:22 +0000 (UTC) From: Vali Zero Reply-To: Vali Zero To: "bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" Message-ID: <543015348.4948849.1438178962054.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_4948848_1138682708.1438178962048" X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FIN_FREE,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: [bitcoin-dev] =?utf-8?q?R=C4=83spuns=3A__Personal_opinion_on_the_?= =?utf-8?q?fee_market_from_a_worried_local_trader?= X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Jul 2015 14:18:17 -0000 ------=_Part_4948848_1138682708.1438178962048 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. Let me rep= hrase it for you, People tipping, buying 0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin transa= ctions *more* than the rest of the people will afford the fees that establi= sh the equilibrium between demand and supply of Bitcoin transactions. The p= eople are free to use they money for whatever they like, but you should und= erstand that Bitcoin transactions are not free. I was merely attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would be th= e first ones that would go away. They would be free to spam or gamble, but = they would have to pay for it. When a category of users would get priced out because of the fee market, th= ey would be free to use any altcoin they want. Please understand that not everyone will leave. The more important players = will remain, those that need it the most. The other players are free to use= whatever altcoin they wish. =C3=8En Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon a scris: =20 "the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low amounts.=C2=A0The pe= ople that actually need Bitcoin would remain." so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers actually don't need = Bitcoin. Who are you to say what people need to use money for?This statement goes ag= ainst the freedom of decentralization and financial freedom Bitcoin should = be able to provide. It's an open network and it will be used as most users see fit, and that re= quires a blocksize increase wether you like it or not, it's simple physics,= other time wait times will become unbearable for those not willing to pay = the high fees, if people leave, then it only mean bitcoins isn't useful, an= d if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless. http://twitter.com/gubatron On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitcoin-dev wrote: Hello, I have been reading an argument saying that paying higher fees would scare = Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferring bank transfers or ot= her payment methods. This does not make sense for me. If some users leave, = then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down and so do the fees. The othe= rs remain. Fee market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand for bitcoi= n transactions and the available supply (given by the block size). The fee = is the price that finds this equilibrium. If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the spammers, = probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low a= mounts. The people that actually need Bitcoin would remain. Please allow this fee market to form... In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will refuse to run Bitcoin co= de that increases the block size and will do my best to tell everyone I kno= w not to upgrade towards running such code. If Bitcoin succombs to the free= stuff army, I will sell all the coins and leave. Nothing is for free. I apologize for any exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards expressi= ng my opinion here. I'm only a local Bitcoin trader, computer engineer, wit= h a reasonable understanding of free markets. And I'm running only one full= node. Kind regards, Valentin _______________________________________________ bitcoin-dev mailing list bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev ------=_Part_4948848_1138682708.1438178962048 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I am disappointed that you did not understand my point of view. L= et me rephrase it for you,

People tipping, buying = 0.99$ products and gamblers that need Bitcoin transactions *more* than the = rest of the people will afford the fees that establish the equilibrium betw= een demand and supply of Bitcoin transactions. The people are free to use t= hey money for whatever they like, but you should understand that Bitcoin tr= ansactions are not free.

I was merely = attempting to point out that spammers and gamblers would be the first ones = that would go away. They would be free to spam or gamble, but they would ha= ve to pay for it.

When a c= ategory of users would get priced out because of the fee market, they would= be free to use any altcoin they want.

Please understand that not everyone will leave. The m= ore important players will remain, those that need it the most. The other p= layers are free to use whatever altcoin they wish.


=C3=8En Miercuri, 29 Iulie 2015 16:47:57, Angel Leon <gubatron@gmail.c= om> a scris:


"the gamblers and perhaps= people transacting very low amounts. The people that actually need Bitcoin would remain."

so people tipping, buying $0.99 products, and gamblers = actually don't need Bitcoin.
Who are you to say what peop= le need to use money for?
This statement goes against the freedom of = decentralization and financial freedom Bitcoin should be able to provide.

It's an open network and it will be used as m= ost users see fit, and that requires a blocksize increase wether you like i= t or not, it's simple physics, other time wait times will become unbearable= for those not willing to pay the high fees, if people leave, then it only = mean bitcoins isn't useful, and if bitcoin isn't useful, it's worthless.



On Wed, Jul 29, 2015 at 9:27 AM, Vali Zero via bitc= oin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfo= undation.org> wrote:
Hello,

I have been reading an argument saying that paying h= igher fees would scare Bitcoin users and they would stop using it, preferri= ng bank transfers or other payment methods. This does not make sense for me= . If some users leave, then demand for bitcoin transactions goes down and s= o do the fees. The others remain.

Fee = market means that an equilibrium is found between the demand for bitcoin tr= ansactions and the available supply (given by the block size). The fee is t= he price that finds this equilibrium.

= If a fee market starts to exist, the first ones to leave are the spammers, = probably followed by the gamblers and perhaps people transacting very low a= mounts. The people that actually need Bitcoin would remain.

Please allow this fee market to form...

In the absence of a functioning fee market, I will = refuse to run Bitcoin code that increases the block size and will do my bes= t to tell everyone I know not to upgrade towards running such code. If Bitc= oin succombs to the free stuff army, I will sell all the coins and leave. N= othing is for free.

I apologize for an= y exagerations, but I just felt strongly towards expressing my opinion here= . I'm only a local Bitcoin trader, computer engineer, with a reasonable und= erstanding of free markets. And I'm running only one full node.

Kind regards,
Valentin


___= ____________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfounda= tion.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


=

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