Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YLzjQ-0007AN-Vm for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:47:24 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.212.174 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.174; envelope-from=allen.piscitello@gmail.com; helo=mail-wi0-f174.google.com; Received: from mail-wi0-f174.google.com ([209.85.212.174]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YLzjL-0007XS-OO for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:47:24 +0000 Received: by mail-wi0-f174.google.com with SMTP id em10so7069834wid.1 for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:47:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.194.3.40 with SMTP id 8mr10938931wjz.98.1423770432959; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:47:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.194.48.105 with HTTP; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 11:47:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <54DD003E.2060508@riseup.net> References: <20150212064719.GA6563@savin.petertodd.org> <356E7F6E-300A-4127-9885-2183FB1DE447@gmail.com> <54DCECE4.3020802@riseup.net> <54DCFBB5.3080202@gmail.com> <54DD003E.2060508@riseup.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:47:12 -0600 Message-ID: From: Allen Piscitello To: Justus Ranvier Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b3a8394e602dc050ee9623e X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (allen.piscitello[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature X-Headers-End: 1YLzjL-0007XS-OO Cc: Bitcoin Development Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:47:25 -0000 --047d7b3a8394e602dc050ee9623e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Nothing will stop that. Bitcoin needs to deal with those issues, not stick our heads in the sand and pretend they don't exist out of benevolence. This isn't a pet solution, but the rules of the protocol and what is realistically possible given the nature of distributed consensus. Relying on altruism is a recipe for failure. On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 1:34 PM, Justus Ranvier wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA256 > > On 02/12/2015 07:15 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: > > I'll add fuel to the fire here, and express that I believe that > > replace-by-fee is good in the long-term. Peter is not breaking > > the zero-conf, it was already broken, and not admitting it creates > > a false sense of security. I don't want to see systems that are > > built on the assumption that zero-conf tx are safe solely because > > it has always appeared safe. You can argue about rational miner > > behaviors all day, but in a decentralized system you have no idea > > what miners consider rational, or speculate about their incentives. > > > As noted elsewhere in the thread, there are two problems with this > analysis: > > 1. It asserts that zero-confirmation transactions are in a binary > state of safe/broken instead of recognizing that relying on them is a > non-binary risk analysis on the part of a merchant. > > 2. Assumptions about what is profitable for miners are based on all > miners having short time horizons for calculating profits. > > In addition, I'll add that there is an assumption that honest actors > can not alter their behavior in response to changing conditions. > > Since scorched-earth solutions to problems are apparently acceptable > now, what would stop more honest node operators from patching their > nodes to blacklist any peer that relays replace-by-fee transactions, > and maybe even publish an IP address list of those peers? > > Punishing Bitcoin users for not adopting somebody's pet solution to a > problem neither responsible nor ethical. > > Child-pays-for-parent allows for stuck transactions to be cleared from > the mempool, and allows recipients of zero-conf transactions to adjust > their risk exposure as much or as little as they like. > > It's a solution that gives Bitcoin users more freedom, instead of > trying to coerce them into pre-determined directions. > > - -- > Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible. > Learn how here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bakOKJFtB-k > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > > iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJU3QA+AAoJECpf2nDq2eYjnagQAJzxQtMMe0ZwAV6UZX+ORrzt > vWh3bfbaO2/NfGL6dXK2i5rWeLTGIkiqZatwaW8S0M53ExMHaqDmW6db6TeE7aDO > hZg4x618FWhYdG7DsfDxThd3rRupSGNJoL3L2763tSz+TrX5HptRh+e8gdy1Sq99 > kk1Fyv1jJVBIXBmck19fj0iKOF8rS7n45d4jXO85VF/kfPegslZ7g9lwyH+b/iJ/ > F0dfQmMefjEugpSrHww0Dnb4jjoOHz5tdW/Tv5DDNWDmsj/gYAMYRxZvoSl+AvAt > P76odgDUwtbMpb+w3skLRLJCcBuTpSlmYVIhp5YlBrpc9ibznxGe+T3BfYoVGKvh > pz/AxsLcNW3Wc0l0zOHdzoOj4lHjQ/WjJGC/dujnYlZozN+7nuU/GTuSR1GpMxg5 > sOM3RuE/Fd+/JII7k7+zMNore44X0p/QVko8OK3kVVPx02Pu1PxRWNHJ2DMY0p7f > b1nsVU5i/853sUez7SyBz5oaNgCgsz4lDKw++TeXhrD6gkdi0LMVOEUjIGMyTZwd > j1wfdfdhhPakcDuyl0ybd9SpSgsUmXkU7N2nkpG8MxMdbopqIhACknZZOrXgoJqL > LtbP1O6v8wvbsdeEH7cXJJhi1IBJK28dv0aBLN6fcqukP23s//Qe+5hhX5nNeUg0 > F9dKdL5zCGofvU/U5BVq > =kEMr > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, > sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is > your > hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought > leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a > look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > --047d7b3a8394e602dc050ee9623e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Nothing will stop that.=C2=A0 Bitcoin needs to deal with t= hose issues, not stick our heads in the sand and pretend they don't exi= st out of benevolence.=C2=A0 This isn't a pet solution, but the rules o= f the protocol and what is realistically possible given the nature of distr= ibuted consensus.=C2=A0 Relying on altruism is a recipe for failure.
<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">
On Thu, Feb 12, 20= 15 at 1:34 PM, Justus Ranvier <justusranvier@riseup.net> wrote:
-----BEGIN PG= P SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 02/12/2015 07:15 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> I'll add fuel to the fire here, and express that I believe that > replace-by-fee is good in the long-term.=C2=A0 Peter is not breaking > the zero-conf, it was already broken, and not admitting it creates
> a false sense of security.=C2=A0 I don't want to see systems that = are
> built on the assumption that zero-conf tx are safe solely because
> it has always appeared safe.=C2=A0 You can argue about rational miner<= br> > behaviors all day, but in a decentralized system you have no idea
> what miners consider rational, or speculate about their incentives. >
As noted elsewhere in the thread, there are two problems with this analysis:

1. It asserts that zero-confirmation transactions are in a binary
state of safe/broken instead of recognizing that relying on them is a
non-binary risk analysis on the part of a merchant.

2. Assumptions about what is profitable for miners are based on all
miners having short time horizons for calculating profits.

In addition, I'll add that there is an assumption that honest actors can not alter their behavior in response to changing conditions.

Since scorched-earth solutions to problems are apparently acceptable
now, what would stop more honest node operators from patching their
nodes to blacklist any peer that relays replace-by-fee transactions,
and maybe even publish an IP address list of those peers?

Punishing Bitcoin users for not adopting somebody's pet solution to a problem neither responsible nor ethical.

Child-pays-for-parent allows for stuck transactions to be cleared from
the mempool, and allows recipients of zero-conf transactions to adjust
their risk exposure as much or as little as they like.

It's a solution that gives Bitcoin users more freedom, instead of
trying to coerce them into pre-determined directions.

- --
Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible.
Learn how here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DbakOKJFtB-k
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=3DkEMr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

-----------------------------------------------------------------------= -------
Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website,
sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is you= r
hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought
leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a<= br> look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/
_______= ________________________________________
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-develo= pment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-de= velopment


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