From: Tamas Blummer <tamas.blummer@gmail.com>
Message-Id: <8D68DC86-1173-43AC-BC84-FE2834741C13@gmail.com>
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Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 15:34:31 +0200
In-Reply-To: <0851B842-34A1-427F-95DC-A1D6AB416FB9@voskuil.org>
To: Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org>
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Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable
 riskless or risky lending,
 prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve
Precedence: list


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Hi Eric,

> On Jul 6, 2019, at 03:28, Eric Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> On Jul 5, 2019, at 17:17, ZmnSCPxj <ZmnSCPxj@protonmail.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> Good morning Eric,
>>=20
>>> But it=E2=80=99s worth noting that early recovery of the UTXO =
entirely eliminates the value of the time lock cost to the ad market. =
The most obvious example is one encumbering the coin to himself, then =
releasing it with his own two signatures whenever he wants. In other =
words, there is no encumbrance at all, just a bunch of pointless =
obscurantion.
>>=20
>> You still do not understand.
>> I strongly suggest actually reading the post instead of skimming it.
>=20
> I am responding to the cryptoeconomic principles, not the =
implementation details. Based on your comments here I am not =
misrepresenting those principles.
>=20
> For example, I have shown that the multisig unlock implementation =
reduces the presumably-encumbered UTXO to simply a UTXO. You have not =
disputed that. In fact below you have accepted it (more below).
>=20
>> The advertisement is broadcast to new nodes on the ad network if and =
only if its backing UTXO remains unspent.
>> Once the UTXO is spent, then the advertisement is considered no =
longer valid and will be outright deleted by existing nodes, and new =
nodes will not learn of them (and would consider it spam if it is forced =
to them when the UTXO is already spent, possibly banning the node that =
pushes the advertisement at them).
>>=20
>> Thus the locked-ness of the UTXO is the lifetime of the =
advertisement.
>=20
> The term =E2=80=9Clocked=E2=80=9D here is misused. A unspent output =
that can be spent at any time is just an unspent output. The fact that =
you can =E2=80=9Cunencumber=E2=80=9D your own coins should make this =
exceedingly obvious:
>=20
>> Once you disencumber the coins (whether your own, or rented) then =
your advertisement is gone; forever.
>=20
> As I have shown, there is no *actual* encumbrance.
>=20

If you have to forgo using your money while using a service that =
encumbers you. You incur opportunity cost proportional to time you use =
the service and the amount you waived to use elsewhere.
No crypto is needed to understand this.


>> Your advertisement exists only as long as the UTXO is unspent.
>=20
> Exactly, which implies *any* UTXO is sufficient. All that the ad =
network requires is proof of ownership of any UTXO.
>=20

Not any, but one with significant value, so a service with limited =
bandwith can prioritize by that.

> Best,
> Eric
>=20
>> Regards.
>> ZmnSCPxj

Best,

Tamas Blummer

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