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[69.113.75.109]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id v13-20020ac8578d000000b002de94b94741sm4145041qta.22.2022.03.04.12.06.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 04 Mar 2022 12:06:52 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <1b6c8b2b-63ff-8cd5-076f-6e15da678a36@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2022 15:06:50 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; Win64; x64; rv:91.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/91.0 Thunderbird/91.5.0 Content-Language: en-US To: Billy Tetrud References: <0a6d4fea-2451-d4e7-8001-dd75a2e140ae@gmail.com> <0af7c513-3df8-dcc8-9a14-e7e909e7fdc6@gmail.com> <4e896010-ce85-5ee9-8f7d-1d29f2271621@gmail.com> From: Paul Sztorc In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Recursive covenant opposition, or the absence thereof, was Re: TXHASH + CHECKSIGFROMSTACKVERIFY in lieu of CTV and ANYPREVOUT X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2022 20:06:54 -0000 On 3/4/2022 7:35 AM, Billy Tetrud wrote: >> sidechains cannot exist without their mainchain ... > > A sidechain could stop supporting deposits from or withdrawals to > bitcoin and completely break any relationship with the main chain. > I agree this is not as sure of a thing as starting with an altcoin > (which of course never has that kind of relationship with bitcoin). > So I do think there are some merits to sidechains in your scenario. > However, I don't think its quite accurate to say it completely > solves the problem (of a less-secure altcoin becoming dominant). It is hard to see how this "sidechain cuts off the mainchain" scenario could plausibly be in enough people's interest: * Miners would lose the block subsidy (ie, the 6.25 BTC, or whatever of it that still remains), and txn fees from the mainchain and all other merged mined chains. * Developers would lose the ability to create a dissenting new piece of software (and would instead be forced into a permanent USSR-style "one party system" intellectual monoculture). * Users would lose --permanently-- the ability to take their coins to new blockchains, removing almost all of their leverage. Furthermore, because sidechains cannot exist without their parent (but not vice-versa), we can expect a large permanent interest in keeping mainchain node costs low. Aka: very small mainchain blocks forever. So, the shut-it-down mainchain-haters, would have to meet the question "why not just leave things the way they are?". And the cheaper the mainchain-nodes are, the harder that question is to answer. However, if a sidechain really were so overwhelmingly popular as to clear all of these hurdles, then I would first want to understand why it is so popular. Maybe it is a good thing and we should cheer it on. > Your anecdote about not running a full node is amusing, and I've often > found myself in that position. I certainly agree different people are > different and so different trade offs can be better for different > people. However, the question is: what tradeoffs does a largeblock > sidechain do better than both eg Visa and lightning? Yes, that's true. There are very many tradeoffs in general: 1. Onboarding 2. Route Capacity / Payment Limits 3. Failed Payments 4. Speed of Payment 5. Receive while offline / need for interaction/monitoring/watchtowers 6. Micropayments 7. Types of fees charged, and for what 8. Contribution to layer1 security budget 9. Auditability (re: large organizations) / general complexity LN is certainly better for 4 and 6. But everything else is probably up for grabs. And this is not intended to be an exhaustive list. I just made it up now. (And, if the layer2 is harmless, then its existence can be justified via one single net benefit, for some users, somewhere on the tradeoff-list.) Paul