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From: Jeff Garzik <jgarzik@bitpay.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Mar 2014 20:14:56 -0400
Message-ID: <CAJHLa0NZkzQQvMxgCJAJGT=Yn6vrVNK8Bg7RAfAjctpnrfg5zA@mail.gmail.com>
To: Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com>
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Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net>,
	kjj <bitcoin-devel@jerviss.org>
Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Multisign payment protocol?
Precedence: list

All of that only melds with the payment protocol under an extremely
expansive definition of "payment."  The payment protocol is really
geared towards a direct one-to-one relationship.

We can make the payment protocol do all this, if you squeeze and push
and try reall hard; it is mainly a question of protocol design and
intended usage:  is PP intended to be, ultimately, an expansive,
universal protocol for gossiping with other parties about bitcoin
transactions in a not-flood-fill manner?


On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 8:09 PM, Alan Reiner <etotheipi@gmail.com> wrote:
> As far as I'm concerned, the way forward is to scrap BIP 10 and build up
> something new that is flexible and extensible.  Also, my understanding is
> that there may be room in the payment protocol for this stuff though I'm not
> sure if it is really adapted well to all the steps: exchanging public keys,
> creating multi-sig/P2SH addresses, proposing multi-sig spends, bundling
> meta-data needed for lite/offline nodes, aggregating signatures, and any
> other details.
>
> When I start multisig integration into Armory (very soon!) I'll write a list
> of requirements for the new format/process and post it here for a wider
> discussion.  Certainly, if the payment protocol can already handle all this,
> that would be awesome.
>
> -Alan
>
>
> On 03/10/2014 08:04 PM, kjj wrote:
>
> I was trying to use bip10 for multisig and coinjoin, but there was a problem
> with it.  I'll have to look back at my notes, but I thought I sent you a
> message about it.  And then real life swallowed my bitcoin time...
>
> I think the bottom line was that it would be useful in the generic case with
> just one minor change.  If there is interest, and it sounds like there just
> may be, I can dust off my notes and see where I left it.  Probably should do
> it soon before someone implements it in PB or XML.
>
> Alan Reiner wrote:
>
> Then of course I tried to do this with BIP 10  when Armory implemented
> offline-transactions two years ago.  I got some positive feedback, but no
> one wanted to help improve it, etc.  I guess nobody else was doing it and/or
> cared at the time.  So I continue to use BIP 10 even though it's pretty
> crappy.  I wanted it to be useful for multisig, too, but it has some
> deficiencies there (it was done when Armory was extremely young and OP_EVAL
> was still on the table).
>
> However, with all this activity, we should start thinking about that and
> discussing it.  Otherwise, I'll just do my own thing again and probably end
> up with something that fits my own needs, but not anyone else's.  Really
> though, multisig shouldn't require all the same app to work.
>
> -Alan
>
>
> On 03/10/2014 01:49 PM, Gavin Andresen wrote:
>
> In my experience, best process for standardizing something is:
>
> 1) Somebody has a great idea
> 2) They implement it
> 3) Everybody agrees, "Great idea!" and they copy it.
> 4) Idea gets refined by the people copying it.
> 5) It gets standardized.
>
> Mutisig wallets are at step 2 right now. BIP is step 5, in my humble
> opinion...
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 10, 2014 at 1:39 PM, Drak <drak@zikula.org> wrote:
>>
>> I was wondering if there would be merit in a kind of BIP for a payment
>> protocol using multisig?
>>
>> Currently, setting up a multisig is quite a feat. Users have to exchange
>> public keys, work out how to get the public keys from their addresses. If
>> one of the parties are not savvy enough, an malicious party could easily be
>> setup that was 2 of 3 instead of 2 of 2 where the malicious party generates
>> the multisig address+script and thus be able to run off with funds anyway.
>>
>> It's also terribly complex to generate and keep track of. There's been a
>> nice attempt at creating an browser interface at coinb.in/multisig but it
>> still lacks the kind of ease with created by the payment protocol. If there
>> was a BIP then it would go a long way to aiding future usability of multisig
>> wallet implementations.
>>
>> What are your thoughts?
>>
>> Drak
>>
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> --
> Gavin Andresen
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
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>
>
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>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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> "Graph Databases" is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their
> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
> this first edition is now available. Download your free book today!
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>
>
>
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>
>
>
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> applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field,
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-- 
Jeff Garzik
Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.      https://bitpay.com/