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[2003:dd:6712:6449:64be:323e:1955:72dc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b8sm15139369wmh.46.2019.07.07.02.18.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 07 Jul 2019 02:18:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Tamas Blummer Message-Id: <501EFBBA-8A14-4B64-BD77-1ED5119154EA@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9C0F7122-3F55-4ABA-8827-9085F2567FA8"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sun, 7 Jul 2019 11:18:04 +0200 In-Reply-To: To: Eric Voskuil References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> <6B9A04E2-8EEE-40A0-8B39-64AA0F478CAB@voskuil.org> <4mT6iC4Va7Afg15a5NLbddAnF2a_vAcQSXYr_jg_5IyEK2ezblJff7EJZakoqvp4BJlLitt9Zlq1_l5JadR0nVss7VDPW-pv8jXGh7lkFC4=@protonmail.com> <0851B842-34A1-427F-95DC-A1D6AB416FB9@voskuil.org> <8D68DC86-1173-43AC-BC84-FE2834741C13@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 07 Jul 2019 11:43:56 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 07 Jul 2019 09:18:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9C0F7122-3F55-4ABA-8827-9085F2567FA8 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FA0BFA26-B7B4-4A70-8175-7A12CD25A321" --Apple-Mail=_FA0BFA26-B7B4-4A70-8175-7A12CD25A321 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Eric, Your cryproeconomic theories may describe correctly Bitcoin as money, = but fall short of describing a Bitcoin that would also offer reliable = memory for other uses. In consequence you miss, that: 1. If the reliable memory that enables money would have more uses then = even temporary use of the memory would have utility, therefore value. = Bitcoin as is, does not have consensus rules to enable reliable = alternate uses. 2. Finite supply of coins implies a finite memory capacity of Bitcoin. = Alternate use of the memory requires that units at least temporarily = become un-fungible, enforced by consensus. Alternate uses would then = have to compete for units of memory, which would give rise to a price = paid to those enabling alternate use, even if temoprarily. 3. If giving up control temorarily has a positive price (through 2) and = return of control is certain (enforced by consenus) then the price paid = is riskless interest for those giving up temporary control. 4. If a use requires more units of memory then it imposes higher cost to = use and it since memory units are finite it imposes more severe = scarcity. Further certainly subjective remarks: Although burning and loss is unavoidable and therefore Bitcoin (as is) = is unsustainable we should design systems that they sustain it as long = as possible (as is). Therefore a requirement to burn for any of = unlimited number of uses should be avoided. We currently perceive borrowed money just as good as (fungible with) any = other money. This is a consequence that money actually comes into = existence through someone borrowing it. Money on your account is a loan = you gave the bank and even paper cash is a loan you gave the central = bank. Bitcoin is different as it just is, it is not borrowed into existence. = Therefore it is not fungible with borrowed version of itself. This = however does not imply that its borrowed version is worthless as it = might be worth something if there is a use for it. Tamas Blummer > On Jul 7, 2019, at 03:30, Eric Voskuil wrote: >=20 > I have published a summary here: >=20 > = https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Risk-Free-Return-Fall= acy = >=20 > Barring any new consequential inputs I=E2=80=99ll refrain from further = comment. >=20 > e >=20 --Apple-Mail=_FA0BFA26-B7B4-4A70-8175-7A12CD25A321 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Hi Eric,

Your cryproeconomic theories may = describe correctly Bitcoin as money, but fall short of describing a = Bitcoin that would also offer reliable memory for other uses.

In consequence you miss, = that:

1. If = the reliable memory that enables money would have more uses then even = temporary use of the memory would have utility, therefore value. Bitcoin = as is, does not have consensus rules to enable reliable alternate = uses. 

2. = Finite supply of coins implies a finite memory capacity of Bitcoin. = Alternate use of the memory requires that units at least temporarily = become un-fungible, enforced by consensus. Alternate uses would then = have to compete for units of memory, which would give rise to a price = paid to those enabling alternate use, even if = temoprarily. 

3. If giving up control temorarily has a positive price = (through 2) and return of control is certain (enforced by consenus) then = the price paid is riskless interest for those giving up temporary = control.

4. If = a use requires more units of memory then it imposes higher cost to use = and it since memory units are finite it imposes more severe = scarcity.

Further certainly subjective remarks:

Although burning and = loss is unavoidable and therefore Bitcoin (as is) is unsustainable we = should design systems that they sustain it as long as possible (as is). = Therefore a requirement to burn for any of unlimited number of uses = should be avoided.

We currently perceive borrowed money just as good as = (fungible with) any other money. This is a consequence that money = actually comes into existence through someone borrowing it. Money on = your account is a loan you gave the bank and even paper cash is a loan = you gave the central bank. 

Bitcoin is different as it just is, it = is not borrowed into existence. Therefore it is not fungible with = borrowed version of itself. This however does not imply that its = borrowed version is worthless as it might be worth something if there is = a use for it.

Tamas Blummer

On Jul 7, 2019, at 03:30, Eric = Voskuil <eric@voskuil.org> wrote:

I have published a summary = here:

https://github.com/libbitcoin/libbitcoin-system/wiki/Risk-Free-= Return-Fallacy

Barring any new = consequential inputs I=E2=80=99ll refrain from further = comment.

e


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